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FarbrorAbavna
12-06-2009, 07:54 PM
Incoming wall of text(can skip the first two paragraphs if allergic). warning!

Okay so here goes. I've searched the forums for a thread to post this in but havent found one that's quite right. So I figuered I'd start a new one. Also have'nt been able to find a thread in the forums where this ability, or something similar to it, has been discussed already. But then again I'm not that heavy on the whole theorycrafting bit so might just have missed it.

Anyways...was reading a thread about the zerg(actually http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1974 ) and it got me thinking on the Roach. From what I can tell this unit is in some sort of constant state of change: should it have regen from the get go, should it be an upgrade, should it do this, should it do that and so on. How does it fit in?

The idea is the roach gets an ability which introduces a penalty to the attack of an enemy unit, given the enemy unit is hit by the roach:s attack of course. It breaks down something like this. The enemy unit either:

1. Suffers no penalty and attacks as usual.
2. Suffers a penalty that makes the unit do less damage.
3. Suffers a penalty that makes the unit miss completely.

For balance the numbers could look something like this:
1. 85% chance that the enemy unit is unaffected
2. 10% chance the enemy unit does reduced damage.
3. 5% chance the enemy unit misses completely.

regarding the reduced penalty option I have no idea how big the reduction aught to be and since I'm not that heavy into theorycrafting I figure its best left to somebody else :)

The lore behind this is that the green goo the roach spews out(shoots?) is now extra sticky and hence affects the vision/sensors of the enemy unit(it/he/she cant aim properly and thus the attack doesnt quite hit or just misses completely). Or something like it :)

Also worth some thought, although its more for the sake of throwing it out there.
1. Should this ability completely change the attack of the roach so it no longer does any damage(given the percentage for reduced damage and complete miss is more aggressive, i.e. higher).
2. Reduce the damage of the roach when upgraded with this ability.
3. Just keep the damage of the roach and add this ability as a part of its attack?

Oh and one last thing, if an enemy unit is hit should it affect just the upcoming attack of the enemy unit or perhaps the next two or three(I'd say just the first attack but again, throwing it out there).

Thoughts, among others, on this is that it makes the roach worthwhile across all tiers(especially if the reduced damage penalty is in percentage of attackers damage and not a set number of points).

So thats it. The numbers are nothing I've gone over all too much they just seem somewhat reasonable to me(a ballpark figure atleast?). Again sorry for the wall of text and if this has already been posted(trying to sift through the results when doing a search on the roach...I'd still be reading well past the release of SC2) :P

Triceron
12-06-2009, 08:16 PM
% modifiers aren't really SC. If it was, you would see a lot more units using min-max damage like in the Warcraft series. That effectively cuts out #3.

StrongCoffee
12-06-2009, 08:27 PM
Excuse if I sound kinda rude, but...why would this be necesary? Inst the roach toughness and completetely stubbornes agains the only idea of dying enough reason for its current tier?

Nicol Bolas
12-06-2009, 08:37 PM
Inst the roach toughness and completetely stubbornes agains the only idea of dying enough reason for its current tier?

No. We have a whole thread about how this is not true.

Gifted
12-07-2009, 12:44 AM
StrongCoffee,

To elaborate further on what Nicol is stating, you can find the discussion here: How does the Roach work? (http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1943)

Santrega
12-07-2009, 01:12 AM
Its not that i dont think the idea is a good idea, because I think its a good idea, I just dont like it for starcraft. I think they have been trying to get rid of randomness and chance, to make the game more realistic. When one unit dies, its because a set damage hit it every time a unit shoots. I like starcraft more than most other games because of the fact chance and randomness occur so infrequent, and I cant support an idea being added that increases the chance.

Your idea makes more sense from an RPG standpoint, rather than RTS.

FarbrorAbavna
12-07-2009, 08:49 AM
Okay so I gave this a bit more thought. I agree that it isnt very starcraftish due to the randomness of it and that if blizz were to use % modifiers in sc/sc2 it would of already be in the game. Thats what you get for theorycrafting at 1 am(time of last post here in Sweden) :)

But what if you would make the ability so that it just induces a penalty to the attacking units damage output. No % modifiers just a set reduction, perhaps -5 points in damage given by the enemy unit. This number would have to be different depending on unit type. Perhaps -3 för light and -5 for heavy or something of that kind(subject to balance). And perhaps make it so that this penalty is only active every second shot the roach..shoots(although this could be percieved as random when playing the game coz honestly keeping track of the roachs attack and if it's their 2nd 4th 6th attack and so on would just be too much, but maybe not. Beta would sort that out).

Now one might say that you already have the armor upgrade for units, and thats true of course. But the thing with this ability is that this penalty reduces the damage given by an enemy unit and it goes for any enemy unit as long as the roach can attack it(making air units unaffected). So the temporary "armor upgrade" would benefit any friendly unit that's attacked by this enemy unit that has this reduction.

This penalty isnt stackable either so you couldnt effectively send ten roaches on any unit and make it do no damage at all, that would just be boring.

Quick thoughts on how this would affect gameplay:
1. You'd get this "armor upgrade" on any friendly unit even if they have maxed out their armor upgrades(coz the next attack of the enemy unit is crippled no matter what friendly unit it attacks).
2. Make it so that you'd wanna micro your roaches to your best extent since the more enemy units that's affected by this the less damage your enemy's army as a whole does.
3. Given a decent balance in numbers the roach would be useful across all tiers(although this ability is a tier 2 or tier 3 upgrade probably).

Bisso
12-07-2009, 11:53 AM
reducing damage dealt of the oponent is a VERY strong ability, and might be too strong, especialy for the roach and surely with the scaling values over light/heavy etc.. That would make the roach the best unit to have at any time of the game, it's a clear -X dmg in your army, yes we want the roach to be a useful unit, but not THAT much.

For other "tanks", like the marauders and the zealots, their ability are quiet less powerful, movement speed reduction is strong, but still doesn't give the marauder the same scaling benefit from a stronger unit, a tank would still probably nuke him out. The main point of the slow debuff is to help other units, more vulnerable to move and shoot with more ease.

A zealot is a good shield because you can use the charge to create a wall and give alot of movement advantage on your ranged units.

So the roach would need something that helps your army, rather than makes the opponent's one useless. Something that would be very good for tier1/2, but would find itself less useful in late games.

I can't think of anything rly but i might come up with something, leaving you with my thoughts