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Braylon017
11-28-2009, 12:03 PM
As a big Starcraft fan the news of Starcraft II was very exciting. I watch every gameplay video and hope to play Beta soon, but one thing is very troubling. The zerg have never won any matches. Yea sure the skill level of some of the players are lacking but is it really that hard. As I watched the gstar zvt desert I was excited to see what looked like the zerg winning, but 2 my surprise they lost again. I love the zerg and have an idea on what can keep them in the game. We all know that zerg need a hatch to do about everything so make it more of a primary structure. What I mean is depending on which level your hatchery is on your units and buildings should be likewise. There are 3 different structures if you didnt know which are: Hatchery Lair Hive The hatch should now build units up 2 tier 2, but all units are still tier 1. Mutas, lurkers, roaches ect. can all be built but they are smaller/weaker. As you upgrade to a lair everything upgrades. Zerglings should be bigger and stronger as all the units.

Perfecttear
11-28-2009, 12:13 PM
......

Braylon017
11-28-2009, 12:15 PM
Buildings should regen faster and creep extends longer. To make it balanced make it so if you have 1 hive and 2 hatcheries only the hive can make a tier 3 zergling while the hatcheries still make tier 1. You can still do upgrades but an upgraded tier 3 zergling can cause more trouble the 6 tier 1 upgraded lings. The hatcheries should take longer to mutate since it is giving more energy to its structures and units. This way if you fast lair one of you hatcheries you can keep up with zealots, stalkers, ect. Yes the time of mutation has to be balanced but it can work. It would be fun to have an assortment of tier 1, 2, and 3 hydras. Keeps the zerg fresh and new. Do you guys think this is a good idea??

Gifted
11-28-2009, 12:29 PM
Buildings should regen faster and creep extends longer. To make it balanced make it so if you have 1 hive and 2 hatcheries only the hive can make a tier 3 zergling while the hatcheries still make tier 1. You can still do upgrades but an upgraded tier 3 zergling can cause more trouble the 6 tier 1 upgraded lings. The hatcheries should take longer to mutate since it is giving more energy to its structures and units. This way if you fast lair one of you hatcheries you can keep up with zealots, stalkers, ect. Yes the time of mutation has to be balanced but it can work. It would be fun to have an assortment of tier 1, 2, and 3 hydras. Keeps the zerg fresh and new. Do you guys think this is a good idea??While I think it has a lot of "That would be cool?!!" factor in it, it would be absolutely impossible to balance and tune to the degree that StarCraft 2 demands.

The reason being that in pro games right now on SC1, some games come down to the individual mineral/gas usage, as in to the degree of 10 minerals could decide the game in many occasions. (I've seen too many games that a unit coming out 1 second later or earlier would have swayed the game)

For this reason, by significantly increasing the cost to produce units and provide different levels of units, you create a very dynamic game, but a game that is unstable. The meta game would be too diverse to actually find a "happy median".


EDIT: [After thinking, this is already in the game]

HOWEVER, this is already in the game in some factor. By upgrading your unit's damage and armor, you create "higher levels" of units. A hydra with 3/3 is significantly different and in a sense "higher teir" than a hydra with 0/0. By doing it in this fashion instead of the one you suggest, we create a "stable" setup that is balanced across all three races. The fact that each indivudual unit is changed by these decisions of what and when to upgrade creates a more unified meta game that changes depending on each unique unit.

0neder
11-28-2009, 01:23 PM
One of the three new videos has a zerg either beating or coming close to beating a terran. He really had the terran on the ropes at least, as I remember....

RamiZ
11-28-2009, 01:38 PM
Also Roach is totally changed. From what I get from SCwiki.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Roach

Roach lost burrowed movement, but they get burrow from the start, no need for an upgrade(which doesn't make sense at all since I will upgrade burrow for banelings anyway...). Also their damage is now 11+3 vs Light, and they have regen even when not burrowed, but a lot higher regen rate while burrowed(we all knew that) and can be upgraded at Hive for more regen, about 10 hp/sec...

Dunno, I liked Tier 1 Roach, this change is somehow... don't really like it... And we saw that Roaches seems to be weak from those games and battle reports... They are even doing now less damage(when counting bonus damage) than they did when they were tier 1.

Blazur
11-28-2009, 02:13 PM
...but one thing is very troubling. The zerg have never won any matches.

I share your concern, and also am worried that the Terrans are slightly overpowered (at least on paper) with their flexibility and ease of choke blocking coupled with the Planetary Fortress. But we need to trust that the beta will resolve any of these concerns.

Nicol Bolas
11-28-2009, 02:16 PM
Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

In SC1, what was the most difficult race for a n00b to play even semi-correctly? The Zerg. Why? Because they have an extra resource to manage, and they behave entirely differently from any other race with regard to centralized production.

Above all other races, the Zerg need understanding. The Zerg flat-out don't work unless you understand what they have, how it works, how to best use it to your advantage, and when to build what.

This is even more important in SC2. Here, larva management now has added nonsense of the Queen's Spawn Larva. Add to that the fact that units have changed subtly (just because it's called a Hydralisk and is at Tier 1 doesn't make it a replica of the SC1 Hydralisk), and so forth. Someone familiar with SC1 really has no idea how to use the SC2 Zerg.

Until players appear who demonstrate an actual understanding of SC2 Zerg; players who are going to use things like Nydus Worms, Mutalisks, Corruptors, Infestors, and Baneling drops from Overlords; until people actually learn how to use Tier 2 instead of trying to build a bunch of random stuff and A-moving, it's too soon to start saying that the Zerg need major reworking.

DemolitionSquid
11-28-2009, 02:23 PM
Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

In SC1, what was the most difficult race for a n00b to play even semi-correctly? The Zerg. Why? Because they have an extra resource to manage, and they behave entirely differently from any other race with regard to centralized production.

Above all other races, the Zerg need understanding. The Zerg flat-out don't work unless you understand what they have, how it works, how to best use it to your advantage, and when to build what.

This is even more important in SC2. Here, larva management now has added nonsense of the Queen's Spawn Larva. Add to that the fact that units have changed subtly (just because it's called a Hydralisk and is at Tier 1 doesn't make it a replica of the SC1 Hydralisk), and so forth. Someone familiar with SC1 really has no idea how to use the SC2 Zerg.

Until players appear who demonstrate an actual understanding of SC2 Zerg; players who are going to use things like Nydus Worms, Mutalisks, Corruptors, Infestors, and Baneling drops from Overlords; until people actually learn how to use Tier 2 instead of trying to build a bunch of random stuff and A-moving, it's too soon to start saying that the Zerg need major reworking.

All very true.

But I must state that I'm still disappointed with some of the design choices. The Roach really is a joke - a ranged tank in tier 2? With a needlessly complex (albeit obviously micro-rewarding) regeneration system?

From the looks of it, I'll be playing Protoss come 2010.

Braylon017
11-28-2009, 02:35 PM
I just feel that by the time you reach good units for the zerg like lurkers and ultralisk the terran are already killing everything. In SC 1 2 sunkens and 6 lings could defend a base real quick and by the time ran or toss started making goons and tank you would have your hydras ready... without the hydra being an all around unit "in sc2 they are anti-air" without more units zerg will be extremely hard for anybody.... David Kim has even lost his first match as zerg. I think main units for toss are zealots and stalkers for terran its marines thors and maroders.., Zerg have no front line soldiers.. From what i seen maybe an ultralisk but other then that its a bunch of counters

Triceron
11-28-2009, 02:37 PM
Are roaches really tanks though? They still take quite a bit of damage, and with the right amount of focus fire they go down just as fast as any other unit. They don't really have great mitigation, do they?

Nicol Bolas
11-28-2009, 02:45 PM
I just feel that by the time you reach good units for the zerg like lurkers and ultralisk the terran are already killing everything.

Which is where your problem lies. You discount Roaches, Mutalisks, Corruptors, Overlord dropping, Nydus, Infestors, and Overseers as not being "good units".

We've seen Infestors put to good use in precisely one game. For just about everything else, we've seen precious little if anything.


David Kim has even lost his first match as zerg.

Yep, you're right. David Kim has never lost a match before this. And he always loses matches as Zerg. Therefore, the gameplay balance designer has never played Zerg before. :rolleyes:


I think main units for toss are zealots and stalkers for terran its marines thors and maroders.., Zerg have no front line soldiers..

God forbid that the Zerg would be unable to just mass up a single unit and A-move it. It'd be terrible if a Zerg player had to think, be creative, or use proper unit combinations. No, we can't have any of that; it's not like the Zerg as a race don't have particular tools to change the combination of their army faster than any other race.

Of course the Zerg should just be able to build Hydras and win. :rolleyes:


They don't really have great mitigation, do they?

Tanking is all about relative cost. If a unit is cheap enough compared to other units, it can be a Tank. What matters for the Roach is that its price per Hp is significantly lower than any other Zerg units of that era. The fact that they have regen helps increase its price per Hp by giving it more effective Hp.

DemolitionSquid
11-28-2009, 02:46 PM
Are roaches really tanks though? They still take quite a bit of damage, and with the right amount of focus fire they go down just as fast as any other unit. They don't really have great mitigation, do they?

A unit with high regen is best used to push tank. Not in the sense of absorbing a lot of damage like the Ultralisk, but in the way it can recover from a battle quickly and thus get into the next fray quickly. This promotes the burrow micro.

Right now, Roaches start with ~15 regen per sec, enough to negate damage from a few marines. Their upgrade hits that up to 25 regen. Being armored, they theoretically are best used against low tier, low damage but high RoF units.

This is negated in TvZ though, because of the Marauder, which absolutely pummels Roaches.

Braylon017
11-28-2009, 03:01 PM
I didnt mean it in a way of just build hydras and win because then it wouldnt be zerg. I want to see the units you listed take on a group of rines maroders and thors and win.., GOD forbid they have tanks also

DemolitionSquid
11-28-2009, 03:05 PM
I didnt mean it in a way of just build hydras and win because then it wouldnt be zerg. I want to see the units you listed take on a group of rines maroders and thors and win.., GOD forbid they have tanks also

The Cheapest counter to M+M+T I can think of would be Infestors + Zerglings + Banelings. Neural Parasite the Thors, Fungal Growth the M+M to stop them from moving, and hit them all with Zerglings and Banelings.

Josue
11-28-2009, 04:13 PM
W... W... Wait a second! Do baneling explosions affect air units? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHZWbRq73rI#t=0m47s)
that's awesome... er I mean awe inspiring.

DemolitionSquid
11-28-2009, 04:15 PM
W... W... Wait a second! Do baneling explosions affect air units? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHZWbRq73rI#t=0m47s)

No.

If you're referring to the new TvZ game, the HSM shot from the Raven hits everything in its AoE. Any friendly units caught in its blast, including the Raven which shot the HSM, will take damage.

RamiZ
11-28-2009, 04:21 PM
Sadly Demo Roaches do not start with 15 HP/sec cause it would be unkillable with 160 HP. Maybe Burrowed yes, but no way it has 15 HP/sec regen, they just die to fast. I don't know, new Roach just doesn't fit anywhere :/

DemolitionSquid
11-28-2009, 04:25 PM
Sadly Demo Roaches do not start with 15 HP/sec cause it would be unkillable with 160 HP. Maybe Burrowed yes, but no way it has 15 HP/sec regen, they just die to fast. I don't know, new Roach just doesn't fit anywhere :/

It was 15, 25 last I heard. The 160 HP is because its tier 2 now, to deal with Marauders and Zealots better I guess.

PsiWarp
11-28-2009, 05:49 PM
I heard it's 5 HP/sec and upgrade at Hive tech for 10 HP/sec, which causes the team color to appear on Roach spikes from the recent screenshot.

I also heard Roach and Hydralisk switch places again, but I have no source to confirm that.


-Psi

DemolitionSquid
11-28-2009, 05:50 PM
I heard it's 5 HP/sec and upgrade at Hive tech for 10 HP/sec, which causes the team color to appear on Roach spikes from the recent screenshot.

I also heard Roach and Hydralisk switch places again, but I have no source to confirm that.


-Psi

Where the hell is n00bonic when we need him?

Anyway, Hydras are tier 1, Roaches are tier 2, in the current build.

Kimera757
11-28-2009, 06:13 PM
I heard it's 5 HP/sec and upgrade at Hive tech for 10 HP/sec, which causes the team color to appear on Roach spikes from the recent screenshot.

I don't know where you got the hp/second numbers from, but the latter rumor is all over the place (quite possibly true).

I think the 15/25 hp/second numbers were from BlizzCon 2008, but the numbers change so often, they could be there again.


I also heard Roach and Hydralisk switch places again, but I have no source to confirm that.


-Psi

That was from a Korean battle.net forum post a few months ago; the translation was ... difficult. More recent than BlizzCon 2009. Unfortunately, non-WWI/BlizzCon events tend to have poor stat reporting overall.

RamiZ
11-28-2009, 06:42 PM
I don't know where you got the hp/second numbers from, but the latter rumor is all over the place (quite possibly true).

I think the 15/25 hp/second numbers were from BlizzCon 2008, but the numbers change so often, they could be there again.



That was from a Korean battle.net forum post a few months ago; the translation was ... difficult. More recent than BlizzCon 2009. Unfortunately, non-WWI/BlizzCon events tend to have poor stat reporting overall.

I will post it again...
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Roach
From November 2009, Roach changed a lot, and now it seems to have 5 hp/sec and after Hive Upgrade 10 hp/sec...

Josue
11-28-2009, 07:08 PM
W... W... Wait a second! Do baneling explosions affect air units? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHZWbRq73rI#t=0m47s)
that's awesome... er I mean awe inspiring.
No.

If you're referring to the new TvZ game, the HSM shot from the Raven hits everything in its AoE. Any friendly units caught in its blast, including the Raven which shot the HSM, will take damage.

Hmm, so, you mean the terran guy self destroyed more than 3 ravens?
how strange, I just keep getting the feeling that those banelings exploded and killed them, I can't see the Hunter Seeker Missile.
About it, I had an idea for a new mechanic:
Overlords when full of banelings and commanded to unload them over an enemy air unit would drop the banelings into the enemy ship causing chaos within it and dealing a good amount of damage.

DemolitionSquid
11-28-2009, 07:13 PM
Hmm, so, you mean the terran guy self destroyed more than 3 ravens?

Yes.


how strange, I just keep getting the feeling that those banelings exploded and killed them, I can't see the Hunter Seeker Missile.

You couldn't see them because they exploded almost right after they were shot.


About it, I had an idea for a new mechanic:
Overlords when full of banelings and commanded to unload them over an enemy air unit would drop the banelings into the enemy ship causing chaos within it and dealing a good amount of damage.

Effectively overlapping a valuable, fragile Overlord with any other air unit to pull off such a maneuver would be hardly worth the effort.

Dauntless
11-28-2009, 07:36 PM
Consider this: Two people. Two guns. A big building to fight inside.

One of the persons get this extremely simple gun. The only thing he has to do is point and click. Gun goes off and kills his opponent.

The other guy receives this ultra hi-tech rocket/grenade launcher/gauss gun/sniper/dragon which he can see through walls with.

The problem is, none of these two guys have ever handled a gun before. Needless to say, the first guy kills the other guy the second he sees him, because the other guy have no clue which of the 86 buttons he should push.

In a world where people understood every advanced device by the first look of it, the second guy could never loose to the first one.

This is obviously an exageration, but I hope you can see my point. None of the guys in the latest videos knows how to handle the Zerg. If any of these guys knew the strenghts of the Zerg, they would've done many things very different.

As it turns out, the Protoss and Terran players were, to put it plainly, better players.

Triceron
11-28-2009, 07:50 PM
That's still a problem when you're giving out these high tech guns to noobs, and all the noobs are simply failing to use it.

I know it's a balance issue in the end, but I feel Zerg are getting the short stick simply because their units are easily countered. Zerg rely so much on melee and surround. New Terran and Protoss units are almost solely designed to circumvent such situations. Rather than Zerg units having counters to enemy units, they're instead being countered since they can't even reach the enemy without dying.

Of course I'm just basing this on the videos we've seen of Zerg play so far. Usually all you see are high Zerg casualties.

Gifted
11-28-2009, 08:40 PM
Please goto the link before you read my info in the "HIDE" box. It will make more sense and help the conversation well.

http://bit.ly/RoachStats

I believe it's 5/10 right now. The over-regen was proven to be too difficult when massed and provided a critical mass situation that was unbefitting of a Teir 1 or 2 unit.

It's true, my rick roll is so much better than the average rick roll. It's my first time ever doing it, so please don't hate me >.< Please continue the conversation and ignore this post if you need to :)

Nicol Bolas
11-28-2009, 09:54 PM
http://bit.ly/RoachStats

Side note: I've never really understood the point of these things. Do that many people actually browse the web without FlashBlock, such that any/all Flash that a webpage throws up plays automatically without direct user intervention? What hell must such people endure?

Quirel
11-28-2009, 10:08 PM
Side note: I've never really understood the point of these things. Do that many people actually browse the web without FlashBlock, such that any/all Flash that a webpage throws up plays automatically without direct user intervention? What hell must such people endure?
It's not all that bad, really.
Anyhow, I've managed to avoid being Rick Rolled ever since it started.

Triceron
11-28-2009, 10:12 PM
Aww, you spoiled the fun!

KadajSouba
11-28-2009, 10:18 PM
I think that the problem is that zergs are the race that require most micro of the 3.

First the terrans. I dont know if anybody noticed but all terran units are ranged. Every one of them. Even the Hellion has a long ass range and a crazy speed. The medivac is an air unit and the healing stuff is ranged. You can literally build your units and then A-move them against the enemy base and they will work their magic.

Then we have protoss. I think that protoss are the second race that need more micro management. Zealots are still straight forward, they will be ur first line of attack while other units attack from behind. Stalkers require some micro, immortals dont need at all. And so on.

But Zergs. The zergling are going to be the base of ur army on early game. But then u have to choose what to build in order to COUNTER ur enemy units. Hidras are good against air, but suck against anything else, roaches are good against light (or medium , dont remeber) but suck against anything else, mutas are good only if u mass them like crazy, lurkers are faaaaar far away in zerg tech tree. I mean, zerg units are too specialized, wichich requires much more micro to handle them, which is the reason why zerg players are losing. They want to play like they did in SC1.

Well thats my point of view.

Regards

SoFool
11-29-2009, 01:23 AM
Hmm I guess that's kinda true.

The guy who tired to micro muta in that tvz desert should enter failblog.

RamiZ
11-29-2009, 01:43 AM
Hidras are good against air, but suck against anything else
Last time we get the info for Hydras, they were doing 8 + 4 vs armored, so I don't think they suck against anything else. They don't suck at all, even vs Marines, you just need to have a lot bigger Hydra army then we saw in those games, you can't do anything with 15 Hydras vs 20+ marines, 5+ marauders and 3 Tanks... I am pretty sure Hydras rape now, and that is why David Kim was going them in that ZvT match. But he failed in massing. And in the start he could crush that Marine force that was defending the Expasion but he didn't and there was his biggest mistake.

The_Blade
11-29-2009, 01:53 AM
Please goto the link before you read my info in the "HIDE" box. It will make more sense and help the conversation well.

http://bit.ly/RoachStats

I believe it's 5/10 right now. The over-regen was proven to be too difficult when massed and provided a critical mass situation that was unbefitting of a Teir 1 or 2 unit.

It's true, my rick roll is so much better than the average rick roll. It's my first time ever doing it, so please don't hate me >.< Please continue the conversation and ignore this post if you need to :)

Your bad side is taking over...

ON-topic:
WALL OF TEXT ALERT

Starcraft the original:
Since the beginning the zerg have worked this way and basically SC itself. SC has produced an even balance between upgrades and units. Allowing the units to work for most of the game with an optimal potential, instead of being replaced by far more powerful units.

Upgrades:

Each race must advance through its tech levels in order to gain better technologies, from which it can gain a possible advantage.

As an example the zerg. You need to tech into a lair and then to a hive to acess higher upgrades. An example is adrenal glands (faster zergling attack), it is a devasting, must-have, zergling attack that will break apart most buildings and units with no backup.

Agresive upgrading:
During agresive upgrading a player implements a quick use of upgrades for units, therefore offering quality over quantity. This upgrades may involve either passive or active abilities. As an example vulture. Vultures are quite effective against a group of zerglings or zealots with the help of some micro. Quantity: an evidently large groups of vultures might destroy an small army of basic units. Quality: a fair amount of vultures might be allowed to drop mines, therefore they will deal with the same armies with less resources but under a higher amount of time.

Defensive upgrading impulses a lossing player to balance the game again by upgrading his defense after the oponent upgraded agresively. Lets take Dustin Browder's example, In the original SC you have a zealot and several lings. Three zealot attacks kill a zergling by default; but when you upgrade the zealot to level 1, the counter is reduced to 2. 1/3 of the damage is not inflicted to the zealot and therefore it lives longer. Wisely when the zerg upgrade their carapace to level 1 the counter moves back to 3. Implemented into SC2, it works the same way.

Units:

Units take rolls or specific jobs within a game, each roll depending on different aspects.

Limitations:
Each unit has a limitiation which makes the player use a varaity of units rather than a single one. This make the player tech into the tech tree and find different combos or units that will offer a tactical advantage over an openent. Exploiting this limitations is the key for destroying your enemy and eventually face victory. But first you must learn to find this limitations.

StarCraft 2

Starcraft 2 adds an interesting derivation on what used to be Strategy in the original StarCraft. Eventually it happens to be the same system but in a different way. Starting by the bonus system.

Upgrades

The uprgade system within this game interects in the same way as in the original StarCraft, with a little difference.

In StarCraft 2 you may make use of the backstabing upgrades over passive upgrades. As an example the terran maraunder and the immortal. Your main army is formed by maraunders and tanks, while the protoss oponent created imortals. The army of immortals is in the way and you are researching a new infantry upgrade. In order to move through the immortal hardening shields, you cancel the upgrade and wait for the attack. The imortal forces fall to your maraunders and eventally you win the match after a tank push.

Units:

StarCraft units are still in their move for perfect balance; but the question ┐will StarCraft 2 reach a similar balance as its predecesor? is still unanswered and it will be for the first 10 years of patching.

Nicol Bolas
11-29-2009, 02:55 AM
Your main army is formed by maraunders and tanks, while the protoss oponent created imortals. The army of immortals is in the way and you are researching a new infantry upgrade. In order to move through the immortal hardening shields, you cancel the upgrade and wait for the attack. The imortal forces fall to your maraunders and eventally you win the match after a tank push.

Um, that doesn't make sense. Getting that attack upgrade won't make your attacks less effective. It simply may not make them more effective vs. 100 of the 300 total Hp of Immortals. It'll still count for the other 2/3rds of the Immortal's shields.

The correct answer is, if you're using units that bang into Immortal shields, and this is a problem for you, grab a Ghost with EMP.

Pandonetho
11-29-2009, 08:06 PM
Last time we get the info for Hydras, they were doing 8 + 4 vs armored, so I don't think they suck against anything else

Oh really? They changed it then from the + dmg against air only. That's good.

n00bonicPlague
11-30-2009, 08:52 AM
Where the hell is n00bonic when we need him?7NzzzcOWPH0&autoplay=1


Anyway, Hydras are tier 1, Roaches are tier 2, in the current build.That's correct.


Please goto the link before you read my info in the "HIDE" box. It will make more sense and help the conversation well.

http://bit.ly/RoachStats

I believe it's 5/10 right now. The over-regen was proven to be too difficult when massed and provided a critical mass situation that was unbefitting of a Teir 1 or 2 unit.

It's true, my rick roll is so much better than the average rick roll. It's my first time ever doing it, so please don't hate me >.< Please continue the conversation and ignore this post if you need to :)
My first successful rickroll was when I set it to autoplay in my sig.