PDA

View Full Version : More Gameplay Translations, IgroMir 2009 StarCraft II Coverage - Day 3



Gradius
11-10-2009, 04:01 PM
Full Article.
(http://sclegacy.com/news/23-sc2/534-more-gameplay-translations-igromir-2009-starcraft-ii-coverage-day-3)

Norfindel
11-10-2009, 05:47 PM
Great work, pure.Wasted! That's some serious amount of translation.

Lots of interesting comments. I think it's going to be a long beta.

ArcherofAiur
11-10-2009, 06:37 PM
Roaches are pretty tough guys with 160 HP, to be aimed at anything sporting the Light armor tag. I expect they'll be countered by Marauders and Stalkers. At the Lair the regeneration is regular and at the Hive you can upgrade it. They start to regen like mad, and to put it simply, a Marine would never be able to kill one. It regenerates too quickly. If even this is too little for you, Burrow the bugger, and he'll regenerate about twice as fast. In ZvZ Roaches eat everything except Mutas for breakfast, and even then only because they can't hit air. And, I would venture a guess, Ultralisks... but this is not a fact. In any case, with their bonus against Light armored units, Hydras, Lings, and Banelings stand practically no chance. Same as Marines and Zealots. The micro at this stage basically comes down to picking out those Roaches that are being focus fired, and either Burrowing them or retreating them outright.

Wow I wonder how fast burrowed roaches with the hive upgrade regenerate. This may actually be a roach version I can get behind.

This also might be why Protoss lost thier fast regen.



One final upgrade in the Engineering Bay allows the Terran to increase the attack range of his Planetary Fortress, Missile Turret, and the Raven's Autoturret and defensive drone.

:eek:



It also turns out that apart from MULEs and ComSat, the Terrans have the ability to throw down +8 Supply at a time. Whether it's permanent or temporary wasn't clear. What this means is you should never be afraid to make a wall of Supplies because you might lose one, since all it takes is a cast to get yourself back in the green.

Hmm maybe calldown supplies does have a use after all.

XSOLDIER
11-10-2009, 07:08 PM
The last curious fellow is the Lurker. Here I was figuring that a Lurker is just a Lurker, and, well, what's there to say? But it's not quite so simple this time around. You get him at Hive-level by upgrading your Hydralisk Den (the same way you might upgrade a Spire). He's morphed from a Hydra, of course, and runs pretty speedily. And it seems like everything's just about the same... except for one very interesting detail: he can be upgraded to increase range by THREE units! This turns the Lurker into just a monster machine that can (as long as I haven't screwed anything up) destroy FROM AFAR any of your opponents' belongings.

I think this is pretty awesome. I still wish they they were available at Hive, and the Upgrade held off until Lair though.


X :cool:

Gifted
11-10-2009, 07:24 PM
Hope you guys enjoy the coverage of the articles, our team as a whole put a lot of effort investigating :) Again, thank you PW, the english community as a whole (as I know people from other sites are looking them up) thanks you

Gradius
11-10-2009, 07:33 PM
Gifted is being modest - he spent the majority of the time cruising Russian websites hunting down info. :p

SoFool
11-10-2009, 07:47 PM
Thx for updates <3

DemolitionSquid
11-10-2009, 07:53 PM
Did I really just read he doesn't think Vikings replace Wraiths as AA?

This guy has lost all credibility with me.

Blazur
11-10-2009, 08:10 PM
Thanks for all your effort getting this posted, and to pureWasted for the translations.

pure.Wasted
11-10-2009, 08:19 PM
Did I really just read he doesn't think Vikings replace Wraiths as AA?

This guy has lost all credibility with me.

Errr, I'm pretty sure he meant their AtG potential. Wraiths can harass from the air which is something Vikings just can't do, as awesome as their ground modes are in certain situations... it's not a clean carry-over.

Anyway, I'm glad you're all enjoying it so much. Never would have expected that Russian, of all languages, would net me an opportunity to translate for SC2... but there ya go. And good on SCL for getting it all organized so quickly.


Wow I wonder how fast burrowed roaches with the hive upgrade regenerate. This may actually be a roach version I can get behind.

It's interesting, isn't it? I've never heard of this take on the Roach before, but it does make some sense... to force players to micro when there's only a few units on the field, and give them a bit of a break when the armies get huge (while still rewarding those that pay extra attention).


I think this is pretty awesome. I still wish they they were available at Hive, and the Upgrade held off until Lair though.

Adolf agreed with you on this, and I do too. I think they should do the same with Lurkers and Dark Templar -- bring them down one whole tier, but then give them higher tech upgrades. Like... siege range and Mystery Upgrade X.

XSOLDIER
11-10-2009, 10:21 PM
Adolf agreed with you on this, and I do too. I think they should do the same with Lurkers and Dark Templar -- bring them down one whole tier, but then give them higher tech upgrades. Like... siege range and Mystery Upgrade X.

Tier 2, is so much of a better place for cloaked units, because there's still the chance that your opponent isn't fully equipped with Detectors. Honestly, I think that the Zerg would be pretty awesome in T2 with all the 'ors/ers: Infestors, Lurkers, & Corruptors.

I can see some pretty mean combinations with those forces. Infestors sneaking in and Mind Controlling one of the units; the Lurkers just wreaking havoc from underground (as the forces already deal with their own units getting turned); the Corruptors sewing discord among the enemy air units. It'd give the Zerg a more mean tactic. It gives more options in keeping your opponent on their toes during Tier 2, like Ghosts & DT are intended to do.


X :cool:

ArcherofAiur
11-10-2009, 10:22 PM
It's interesting, isn't it? I've never heard of this take on the Roach before, but it does make some sense... to force players to micro when there's only a few units on the field, and give them a bit of a break when the armies get huge (while still rewarding those that pay extra attention).


At first I thought the multi-regen roach was too complicated for a simple starcraft unit, but idk the more I think about it the more it seems to fit.

pure.Wasted
11-10-2009, 10:32 PM
At first I thought the multi-regen roach was too complicated for a simple starcraft unit, but idk the more I think about it the more it seems to fit.

I agree on both counts. It is somewhat counter-intuitive in theory BUT fairly intuitive in practice. I guess Beta will sort this one out, at this stage.

Nicol Bolas
11-11-2009, 01:05 AM
It's funny. This "multi-regen" stuff has been in the game since BR2. I kept bringing up the fact that the Roach's regen increased while it was burrowed. But for some reason, nobody noticed until now.


Warp Gates can be turned back into Gateways, although this takes some time. This trick is unimaginably useful -- Warp Gates are needed only for teleportation, and in all other scenarios Gateways are preferable.

Um, what? The only reason I can see for Gateways to be "preferable" if he can't keep up with Warp Gate production. I can certainly understand that (I certainly won't be keeping up with it), but he should know that high-end players most certainly will keep up with WG production.

It's just strange that he would use such absolute language to describe the utility of these abilities.


the Zerg have practically nothing to deal with Hellions until Lair. Zerglings, Banelings, Hydras -- all have Light armor and die in droves to standard Hellions. That's why, IMHO, mass Hellions will be, for the moment, the optimal TvZ build -- and don't forget you can even upgrade them at the Tech Lab for +10 damage to Light. That's double damage... and all splash! These guys can be dropped to harass while you're already switching to Vikings to pre-emptively counter Mutas (because they will, apparently, see some use versus Terrans).

Stop me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone at Blizzard say that Roaches and Hydralisks switched tech again, so Roaches were T1 and Hydras T2? But this would be sometime after the build they're playing, right?

This very issue might be the big reason for doing so. Though to be honest, I don't know why; Hellions may deal AoE damage, but that affects any massable unit. Roaches will be no less succeptable to Hellion attacks (and Hellions are armored, not light, right?) than Hydralisks. And Hydralisks would be better able to defend themselves, since they have longer range.

The big disparity there though is the fact that Hydras cost gas and Hellions don't.


The Infestor really does start with all his spells, but moves around above-ground VERY slowly, and for this reason the speed upgrade is a must.

Screw that. Get Overlord drop+speed and use that. You can be researching that while getting an Infestation Pit and building some Infestors.


For example, an upgrade that increases the Bunkers' holding capacity! Yup... after this upgrade you can fit inside your Bunker 6 Marines or 3 Marauders or 3 Ghosts.

I call "No Way." No way that makes it through beta. Either that upgrade goes or salvagable bunkers go. Even without the ridiculous +2 armor upgrade, that's total BS.

If it does, I'm switching to Terran and abusing the hell out of it. Screw teching, I'll contain with crazy-stupid powerful bunkers and leap-frog in.


There's also some bad news related to Stimpacks. Not only are they now researched in the completely out-of-the-way Merc Compound

When did the Merc Compound become "out of the way?" As I understand it, it's in the exact same place in the tree as the Academy. You know, the building where you researched Stim in SC1.


They hit for 6, but twice, which comes out to 12. In general StarCraft 2 seems to have a lot of these dual attacks, which in the original was had only by Zealots, Gollies, and Scouts. Marauders deal extra damage to armored foes, which includes themselves.

This is really more in line with what Marauder damage should be. Not 10x2 but 6x2. With a bonus to armored. They can slow down smaller groups of light units, but their stun effect will be of little value against large swarms. And Marines can out-damage them cost-for-cost.


-MULEs are possible from Planetary Fortress instead of Orbital Command.

Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's take the (self-described) neigh-unkillable building and let it give you an econ advantage.

People can scout with Medivacs or Vikings. Medivacs and Vikings can't give you econ.

Pandonetho
11-11-2009, 01:15 AM
I'm not really sure how I'm liking the Zerg now, I'm always begging for the re-innovation of the Zerg (hard to innovate something that's already innovative right) but it seems mostly it's just a bunch of tech switching with where goes where.

I dunno, ultimately I'll just wait till beta. Terran sounds awesome to me no matter what news comes up about it, IMO everything about them is just being done right.

I think people seriously underestimate the ground capabilities of the Viking. It does 2 more damage than the Goliath, and the Goliath in SC1 is like marines on permanent stim, if you have enough of them, they shred the shit out of Zerglings, Lurkers, Hydralisk, all the general units that comprise of the standard attacking Zerg force. (They also pwn the shit out of air, but the Viking will have more difficulty doing that seeing as it has to transform every time it wants to attack either air or ground).

But honestly, I can't wait to use the Viking.

Nicol Bolas
11-11-2009, 01:38 AM
It does 2 more damage than the Goliath

And it's not a double-attack, so armor only counts once against it.


the Goliath in SC1 is like marines on permanent stim

No, it's like... two Marines. For the price of 3. Hydralisks are superior cost-for-cost.


I think people seriously underestimate the ground capabilities of the Viking.

It will have its uses, but you're not going to build Vikings for their GtG damage.

Although, it would be interesting if there was an upgrade for Vikings at the Fusion Core that gave them, say, +10 vs. Armored in GtG damage. Most upgrades tend to make the unit better at what it is already good at; this one would specifically be about giving an added dimension to an already versatile unit.

pure.Wasted
11-11-2009, 02:13 AM
It's funny. This "multi-regen" stuff has been in the game since BR2. I kept bringing up the fact that the Roach's regen increased while it was burrowed. But for some reason, nobody noticed until now.

Oh, dang. I didn't notice anyone mentioning this until just now. Hm!


It's just strange that he would use such absolute language to describe the utility of these abilities.

Yeah, it did seem a little strange. He's supposed to be a pro (plenty of people on TL recognize him), so I assumed it was just THAT difficult to take advantage of. I think it might be better for the game if he's right universally, and not just for himself. Switching from Warp Gates to Gateways and back could really be something of a skill -- knowing when to keep it in one form and when not to.


Hellions may deal AoE damage, but that affects any massable unit. Roaches will be no less succeptable to Hellion attacks (and Hellions are armored, not light, right?) than Hydralisks. And Hydralisks would be better able to defend themselves, since they have longer range.

I think the key here is in the way people micro with Hellions. Because these guys really are glass cannons, getting the most use out of them may very often involve not attacking as soon as the cooldown is up, but rather as soon as you have that optimal distance from the enemy that you'll hit him but he won't be able to hit you back if he turns around.

This might be exactly what Roaches need for their regeneration to shrug off the damage. Although this whole Burrow/Upgrade regeneration business confuses things, and I don't even know if that's available in the new build. Ugh.


I call "No Way." No way that makes it through beta. Either that upgrade goes or salvagable bunkers go. Even without the ridiculous +2 armor upgrade, that's total BS.

I don't even see why it was implemented. I mean, if we wanted to go to town I could come up with thirty different upgrades for the Siege Tank, but that doesn't mean that the game needs them. Was Salvage really not enough?


When did the Merc Compound become "out of the way?" As I understand it, it's in the exact same place in the tree as the Academy. You know, the building where you researched Stim in SC1.

I think the issue here might be twofold, whatever way you choose to look at it. If you're getting Stimpack for Marines or Marauders, that's the only thing you're going to get out of the Academy -- as opposed to Medics and range, as well. It's a waste of time and money.

If you're getting Stimpack for Reapers, then you can't research both it and D8s at the same time, so time constraints force you to raid with either unstimmed Reapers, or ones lacking D8 Charges.

In either case, you lose out.


People can scout with Medivacs or Vikings. Medivacs and Vikings can't give you econ.

It's interesting how that works, though, isn't it? I mean, we're stuck talking about balancing the decision-making of an econ-related ability in the Macro thread, while Adolf says "you'll always use Scan!" and you say "you'll always use MULEs!" As long as even one of you is right, that suggests that an econ-related buff may simply be unbalanceable in terms of decision making.

Which may be yet another good reason to refocus the macro mechanics not to deal with resources at all, as many have already suggested in the past...

Nicol Bolas
11-11-2009, 03:00 AM
I think the issue here might be twofold, whatever way you choose to look at it. If you're getting Stimpack for Marines or Marauders, that's the only thing you're going to get out of the Academy -- as opposed to Medics and range, as well. It's a waste of time and money.

Which leads to my chief complaint about Terran upgrades: they screwed it up.

At BlizzCon08, it was very clear how upgrades worked. The attack/defense upgrades were researched at Tech Labs. Everything else came from some other building.

So back then, if you wanted Shields for your Marines, you needed a Merc Compound (or whatever they called it then). Stim came "for free." Siege Mode required an Armory. And so on.

It did clutter up the Fusion Core a lot (Cloak + energy for Banshees, Nighthawk researches + energy, 3 BC researches + energy, and energy for Medivacs). But there were ways of solving that issue without breaking the design. Namely, making Banshees & Nighthawks come from a separate building.

ArcherofAiur
11-11-2009, 09:22 AM
Um, what? The only reason I can see for Gateways to be "preferable" if he can't keep up with Warp Gate production. I can certainly understand that (I certainly won't be keeping up with it), but he should know that high-end players most certainly will keep up with WG production.


Oh you mean high-end players like one of these guys?

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/614/imbaadolfra.th.jpg

imba.Adolf[RA]
Legend of Kazakhstan StarCraft
Top 2 WCG 2002

Nicol Bolas
11-11-2009, 10:21 AM
Oh you mean high-end players like one of these guys?

No. I guess he was good 7 years ago. But that's like 50 years in other sports; they didn't even have macro fully down yet. So it's no surprise that he was finding SC2 macro to be less than ideal.

ArcherofAiur
11-11-2009, 11:37 AM
No. I guess he was good 7 years ago. But that's like 50 years in other sports; they didn't even have macro fully down yet. So it's no surprise that he was finding SC2 macro to be less than ideal.

So just to clarify you dont consider adolf a high end player? Or is it that you dont think he knows how to macro?

Krikkitone
11-11-2009, 12:47 PM
Which leads to my chief complaint about Terran upgrades: they screwed it up.

At BlizzCon08, it was very clear how upgrades worked. The attack/defense upgrades were researched at Tech Labs. Everything else came from some other building.

So back then, if you wanted Shields for your Marines, you needed a Merc Compound (or whatever they called it then). Stim came "for free." Siege Mode required an Armory. And so on.

It did clutter up the Fusion Core a lot (Cloak + energy for Banshees, Nighthawk researches + energy, 3 BC researches + energy, and energy for Medivacs). But there were ways of solving that issue without breaking the design. Namely, making Banshees & Nighthawks come from a separate building.

Well I think that part of the problem was
Armory is too long to wait for Siege Tank upgrade
Fusion core is too long to wait for Cloak upgrade

As those abilities are vital to the units (or like cloak, rapidly decline in value)

Also, except for Marauders, Stim is weakened by moving Inf. Healing up the Tech tree, so its not as big a Sacrifice for Marines not to get it without Merc Compound.. or wait to get it.

It might be worth doing it Just for the Barracks Tech Labs...but that might get confusing

Possibly making the Barracks Tech Labs ueless and putting Shield/D8/ and Stim all on the Merc Compound would work. (after all its not like there is a lot of need for the Tech Labs to be doing anything)

Pandonetho
11-11-2009, 03:52 PM
I'm pretty sure that professionals will still have a mix of warpgates and gateways.

They use queues and rally points... A LOT.

Blazur
11-12-2009, 08:35 AM
For the first time, we have confirmation that supply depots cannot lift when units are on top of them.

Ghost_828
11-12-2009, 01:32 PM
For the first time, we have confirmation that supply depots cannot lift when units are on top of them.

This is most definitely a good thing. I was curious as to what would happen. I suppose a part of me wished that spikes would rise and impale those above, but alas.
Now we only need 'Meet the Special Infected' clips for L4D 2.