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View Full Version : Should Warp-In have rally points?



ArcherofAiur
10-27-2009, 07:20 PM
And Here We Go

Pandonetho
10-27-2009, 07:26 PM
You mean rallying to a pylon powered location so that once you click it automatically spawns there?

If so, no because that totally kills the fun of Warp-In.

Crazy_Jonny
10-27-2009, 07:26 PM
That would be helpful, I vote yes.


If so, no because that totally kills the fun of Warp-In.

How? Because you cant see it? A pro wont bother looking at the units they just want to bring on the battlefield. Theyll only do it performing a drop.

Suggestion: When you want to warp to a rally point, you should press 'r' after selecting a unit.

n00bonicPlague
10-27-2009, 07:27 PM
Beat me to it lol.

It makes sense merely because it is a production building and all other production buildings in the game have rally points; however, it works unlike any production building yet created, and so there may be some details that need to be looked at first. One example would be the case of how units should appear at a rally point — especially if multiple Warp Gates point to the exact same spot — because they obviously can't appear in the exact same pixel (due to game physics).

Overall, however, it makes perfect logical sense.

Pandonetho
10-27-2009, 07:29 PM
One example would be the case of how units should appear at a rally point — especially if multiple Warp Gates point to the exact same spot — because they obviously can't appear in the exact same pixel (due to game physics).

They would just spawn beside the rally similar to how normal units can't walk to the exact same point the previous rallied unit walked to.

Also, the point of Warp-In is to be a trade-off. You lose queues, you lose rally, you get powerful warp-in mechanic.

ArcherofAiur
10-27-2009, 07:40 PM
Also, the point of Warp-In is to be a trade-off. You lose queues, you lose rally, you get powerful warp-in mechanic.

Thats like saying the point of Proton Charge is to make you click on the mineral field every 30 seconds.

n00bonicPlague
10-27-2009, 07:41 PM
I thought it was primarily a loss of queues (which I can understand for gameplay and balance) and that the loss of rally was merely something not thought about. I don't recall having any major blue posts explaining the loss of rally points from the Warp Gate. Another issue I did think of, however, is what should happen when the power to the original rally point is lost. Should the units spawn anyway but at their respective Warp Gate, or should the player receive an error message saying that they cannot be spawned?

Crazy_Jonny
10-27-2009, 07:46 PM
I thought it was primarily a loss of queues (which I can understand for gameplay and balance) and that the loss of rally was merely something not thought about. I don't recall having any major blue posts explaining the loss of rally points from the Warp Gate. Another issue I did think of, however, is what should happen when the power to the original rally point is lost. Should the units spawn anyway but at their respective Warp Gate, or should the player receive an error message saying that they cannot be spawned?

The player should just lose their rally point, as if they never created one. Simple.

ArcherofAiur
10-27-2009, 07:48 PM
Warpgate could just be an upgraded form of the gateway. There is really not a whole lot of reason why the player should have to switch between the two just for the sake of needless busywork.

DemolitionSquid
10-27-2009, 07:48 PM
thats like saying the point of proton charge is to make you click on the mineral field every 30 seconds.

It is you imbecile!

Crazy_Jonny
10-27-2009, 07:49 PM
It is you imbecile!

As soon as I saw that comment, I was expecting you to say that:D.

DemolitionSquid
10-27-2009, 07:51 PM
As soon as I saw that comment, I was expecting you to say that:D.

I've had it up to HERE (points very high) with Archers utter bullshit. He is nothing but a goddamn troll.

ArcherofAiur
10-27-2009, 07:54 PM
Its funny how agreeing with me can make you so mad.

Crazy_Jonny
10-27-2009, 07:57 PM
I've had it up to HERE (points very high) with Archers utter bullshit. He is nothing but a goddamn troll.

Well now I wouldn't say that...

but getting back on topic, I dont see a good reason warp in cant have rally. If its meant to create additional apm, an easy fix would be for the player to press the rally button (like r) after selecting the unit, that way you dont have to look at the location youre warping to.

Darn, now I really want them to put this in the game.

n00bonicPlague
10-27-2009, 07:59 PM
I am so asking for it......

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104529

Kimera757
10-27-2009, 07:59 PM
*Sigh*

Must Archer turn every damn thread into a macro thread?

Anyway, I'm sure many people in this thread have got to play StarCraft II at least once now. I only got to play at BlizzCon 2007, but warp-in worked just fine then, IMO.

If you could rally all those warp gates into one place, you'd have confusion, such as overlapping units (or, rather, units not appearing exactly where you wanted them to be). I think you're better off with the option of putting zealots here, stalkers there and so forth. It's faster and more flexible that way, and still only requires one "extra" click per unit (and it's a decision-making click, since you're deciding where to put the unit). It also avoids problems with using warp prisms, which you can shut down (so the pylon-like aura is no longer there), move them around, etc.

This is a "screen-shift" mechanic I can get behind. You generally want to warp-in units into the fringes of a combat that is either about to start or is already going on. (No need to go back to your base to select your warp gates, when you can select them all by pushing "W".) I forgot to test warping-in units on the minimap. Should put that in the beta request group at some point.

Unlike some other mechanics, using warp-in never felt like busywork to me. It didn't require more clicks than, say, selecting five barracks and pushing "M, M, R, R, R" for two marines and three marauders. (Well, I guess it took five more clicks, but thinking was going on.)

Crazy_Jonny
10-27-2009, 08:06 PM
If you could rally all those warp gates into one place, you'd have confusion, such as overlapping units (or, rather, units not appearing exactly where you wanted them to be). I think you're better off with the option of putting zealots here, stalkers there and so forth. It's faster and more flexible that way, and still only requires one "extra" click per unit (and it's a decision-making click, since you're deciding where to put the unit). It also avoids problems with using warp prisms, which you can shut down (so the pylon-like aura is no longer there), move them around, etc.


I dont get why positioning your units properly is important UNLESS your dropping units.

If you wanted zealots your warp gates rally point: z, r, z, r...

Instead of:
Click minimap/proxyhotkey, z, click, z, click...

Its a small gain, but atleast the option is there.

ArcherofAiur
10-27-2009, 08:09 PM
I wonder what people would be saying if when they revealed Warp-In it was a gateway upgrade with rally points and queues and then later they took those away to create needless busywork and a new "trade off".

DemolitionSquid
10-27-2009, 08:09 PM
I dont get why positioning your units properly is important UNLESS your dropping units.

If you wanted zealots your warp gates rally point: z, r, z, r...

Instead of:
Click minimap/proxyhotkey, z, click, z, click...

Its a small gain, but atleast the option is there.

Warp-In with Rally would look more like this:

Hotkey for Warp Gates (1) > Rally (R) > number of Zealots (Z, Z, Z, Z...)

All the Zealots from all the Warp Gates would Warp-In around the same rally point at almost the exact same time.

Crazy_Jonny
10-27-2009, 08:12 PM
Warp-In with Rally would look more like this:

Hotkey for Warp Gates (1) > Rally (R) > number of Zealots (Z, Z, Z, Z...)

All the Zealots from all the Warp Gates would Warp-In around the same rally point at almost the exact same time.

Even easier... why must I overthink.

ArcherofAiur
10-27-2009, 08:12 PM
Warp-In with Rally would look more like this:

Hotkey for Warp Gates (1) > Rally (R) > number of Zealots (Z, Z, Z, Z...)

All the Zealots from all the Warp Gates would Warp-In around the same rally point at almost the exact same time.

Which is exactly what the player would want if they wernt hindered by the interface.

MattII
10-27-2009, 10:18 PM
Voted no, WI doesn't need a rally point because WI practically 'is' a rally point, so giving WI a rally point would be like having a selectable ability to allow a Probe to mine rather than just right-clicking the minerals like you do in SC.

Wankey
10-27-2009, 11:37 PM
Um, warp in is supposed to be select the building (either via mouse or shortcut), press the unit icon (or shortcut) and then select a place within pylon power. It gives the user a lot of manual macro features.

If warp in has rally points, it’s just an upgraded gateway that not only plops the unit you want automatically where you’ve set it but it also builds then near instantly. Then why bother with gateways at all? Why not just have warp gate as the default gate way?

Which goes to another idea - why don’t we have warp gate as the default gateway? In every single BR, they’ve always used warp gates. The second you research warp gate, all gateways turn into warp gates...

ArcherofAiur
10-27-2009, 11:42 PM
Um, warp in is supposed to be select the building (either via mouse or shortcut), press the unit icon (or shortcut) and then select a place within pylon power. It gives the user a lot of manual macro features.

If warp in has rally points, it’s just an upgraded gateway that not only plops the unit you want automatically where you’ve set it but it also builds then near instantly. Then why bother with gateways at all? Why not just have warp gate as the default gate way?

Which goes to another idea - why don’t we have warp gate as the default gateway? In every single BR, they’ve always used warp gates. The second you research warp gate, all gateways turn into warp gates...


Hmmmmm get rid of gateways and replace them with warpgates with rally and queues. Would certainly cut down on needless busywork.

supersonic
10-27-2009, 11:44 PM
How the heck would rally points work with warp gates =S

warp gates work with you clicking the specific location to spawn them, are they going to run to the place after? If so then that sounds really silly and useless.. because you can basically choose where they are "going" already..

ArcherofAiur
10-27-2009, 11:45 PM
How the heck would rally points work with warp gates =S

warp gates work with you clicking the specific location to spawn them, are they going to run to the place after? If so then that sounds really silly and useless.. because you can basically choose where they are "going" already..

When we say rally point what we really mean is you tell the warpgate where to warp in and then you just need to hit the hotkey without retelling the warpgate to make the unit in the same location over and over again.

supersonic
10-27-2009, 11:45 PM
Um, warp in is supposed to be select the building (either via mouse or shortcut), press the unit icon (or shortcut) and then select a place within pylon power. It gives the user a lot of manual macro features.

If warp in has rally points, it’s just an upgraded gateway that not only plops the unit you want automatically where you’ve set it but it also builds then near instantly. Then why bother with gateways at all? Why not just have warp gate as the default gate way?

Which goes to another idea - why don’t we have warp gate as the default gateway? In every single BR, they’ve always used warp gates. The second you research warp gate, all gateways turn into warp gates...

Not changing to warp gate would be just silly, even if your not going a gateway/warp gate build (which almost never happens). its only 50m 50g and it cuts about 10 seconds at least off of every unit made at the gateway.

supersonic
10-27-2009, 11:46 PM
When we say rally point what we really mean is you tell the warpgate where to warp in and then you just need to hit the hotkey without retelling the warpgate to make the unit in the same location.

but that defeats to entire purpose of warping in =S

Josue
10-28-2009, 12:28 AM
but that defeats to entire purpose of warping in =S

Well guys, pardon my ignorance, but how does warp in work exactly?
is it something like the Arbiter's recall, or even better?
I mean, how do you trigger it? click to what?
whatever the answer is, seems like "no" is winning. so, it could very well mean warp in is good enough.

Pandonetho
10-28-2009, 12:32 AM
Warp-in is when you select a warpate, and then build a unit which will immediately (well actually like 3-4 seconds) warp in to anywhere that you clicked if it's in pylon power. It then operates on a cooldown before you can warp in a new unit.

I hear it chops off 10 seconds from the build times of all the gateway units (meaning the cooldown is 10 seconds shorter than the build times of gateways units) but I haven't seen any direct evidence of this so I don't know if it's true or not.

DemolitionSquid
10-28-2009, 05:18 AM
Warp-in is when you select a warpate, and then build a unit which will immediately (well actually like 3-4 seconds) warp in to anywhere that you clicked if it's in pylon power. It then operates on a cooldown before you can warp in a new unit.

I hear it chops off 10 seconds from the build times of all the gateway units (meaning the cooldown is 10 seconds shorter than the build times of gateways units) but I haven't seen any direct evidence of this so I don't know if it's true or not.

It's true. Zealots take 33 seconds to build from Gateways, but only 23 to cooldown from Warp-In. Personally I'm not a fan of this, it already has the advantage of being able to span anywhere, but the 10 seconds is there to give players a little leeway to gain some advantage from the mechanic, in case they miss the timing.

pure.Wasted
10-28-2009, 05:41 AM
Tsk, you could have done a better job with the thread Archer. We've already built up the basis of this discussion in the Macro thread, pointing out a lot of interesting information that would have helped people reach a (better-) informed decision. Instead, you've provided no context for the question and are basically looking for some impulse decisions from people who don't know the ramifications of what they're being asked.

There's quite a few concerns to address before Warp-In can have rally points. One is that introducing rally points will remove two sources of Macro: manual rally and Warp Gate-Gateway switching.

With Rally, Warp Gates become objectively superior to Gateways. That means there's no incentive for pros to ever use the latter. That means they won't ever want to switch back and forth, which loses out on both 1) valuable decision making and 2) valuable macro clicks.

That means we have to make up for this macro elsewhere. Then, we have to come to terms with the fact that there is no longer a decision to make in regard to using a Warp Gate or a Gateway... and find some other place in Protoss gameplay to introduce more depth to the decision making process.


There is no other building in the game right now that can be upgraded to perform the same function better. Command Centers have two upgrades, yes, but you have to choose between the two. A Spire has one upgrade, yes, but it provides different benefits -- it doesn't give you better Mutalisks, it gives you completely different units that you might simply not need at all. Rally Warp Gate, on the other hand, gives you the exact same things as the Gateawy, except better. So, again, the focus is on the lack of decision making on the part of the player. Yes, the questions "Is it worth the cost? When exactly do I get it?" remain, but the CC has those questions too, along with "If I get X instead of Y, that means I can't get Y. Is this a non-financial cost I'm willing to pay?"

Now, if all of these concerns could be resolved through the inclusion of alternative DEEP, DECISION-MAKING mechanics that involve macro... then yes, I'd be for it. But that's a big if, and this is not a top priority at the moment.

And the funny thing is... this isn't the first time you've tried to dumb down macro for the benefit of the lowest common denominator, Archer. I'm sensing a pattern.

unentschieden
10-28-2009, 07:45 AM
Macro apm ISN`T the reason Warp-in doesn´t have a Rallypoint. Warp-in doesn´t have a rallypoint because it wouldn´t make sense with the mechanic. In actuall gameplay it´s suggested that you use the Warpprisms Pylonfield to flank the enemy and minimise reinforcement times. Point being that the "rally point" would move anyway with each warp-in wave.Remember that units are especially vulnerable during the process. That is the same reason there aren´t queues with Warp-in.
The reduced production time is balanced against human error due to lack of queues and delays with setting up power (pylon not done yet, warpprism not deployable at current position for whatever reason...).

Warpgates currently switch as mercy option for new players that want to use warp in situationally but won´t/can´t deal with the Warp in process in "regular" gameplay. It would be a downgrade for these players if the Warp in upgrade irreversibly and instantly convertet all Gates.

That is also why Karune excused the "simple" PC mechanic by mentioning that it balances out with the comperativly complex warp-in mechanic. It´s "hard" to use because thats how it works, not by design. Would you want to set a rallypoint in WC3for the skeletons the Necromancers summon?

Blazur
10-28-2009, 08:24 AM
No. Warp-in allows for faster unit production at the cost of automation. Allowing for rally points would remove any drawbacks.


Anyway, I'm sure many people in this thread have got to play StarCraft II at least once now.

*tear*

ArcherofAiur
10-28-2009, 08:27 AM
Tsk, you could have done a better job with the thread Archer. We've already built up the basis of this discussion in the Macro thread, pointing out a lot of interesting information that would have helped people reach a (better-) informed decision. Instead, you've provided no context for the question and are basically looking for some impulse decisions from people who don't know the ramifications of what they're being asked.


Proper Polling Procedures. You dont want to bias your data.

ArcherofAiur
10-28-2009, 08:37 AM
Tsk, you could have done a better job with the thread Archer. We've already built up the basis of this discussion in the Macro thread, pointing out a lot of interesting information that would have helped people reach a (better-) informed decision. Instead, you've provided no context for the question and are basically looking for some impulse decisions from people who don't know the ramifications of what they're being asked.

There's quite a few concerns to address before Warp-In can have rally points. One is that introducing rally points will remove two sources of Macro: manual rally and Warp Gate-Gateway switching.

With Rally, Warp Gates become objectively superior to Gateways. That means there's no incentive for pros to ever use the latter. That means they won't ever want to switch back and forth, which loses out on both 1) valuable decision making and 2) valuable macro clicks.

What valuable decisioni making? If were using the "perfect player scenarios" that we used for Proton Charge then players will always switch to Warpgates and never switch back.



There is no other building in the game right now that can be upgraded to perform the same function better. Command Centers have two upgrades, yes, but you have to choose between the two. A Spire has one upgrade, yes, but it provides different benefits -- it doesn't give you better Mutalisks, it gives you completely different units that you might simply not need at all. Rally Warp Gate, on the other hand, gives you the exact same things as the Gateawy, except better.



Im pretty sure the Lair is specifically better then the Hatchery (more hitpoints, upgrades). Besides even IF there were no other buildings that upgraded to a specifically better form that still doesnt mean you cant have a building that upgrades to a specifically better form. You guys love to invent these patterns and then draw crazy conclusions from them.

Norfindel
10-28-2009, 09:42 AM
I'm not 100% sure. Probably Warp-in could be just an upgrade of normal Gateways, and still have the queue and the rally point. Some problems would arise in the situation that it isn't possible to use the destination anymore (for example: no power in destination), but nothing unsolvable. Still, the other races cannot just make low-tier units appear at the rally point, so this changes balance a little for the casual players.
I'm more on the yes side, so i will vote according to that.

n00bonicPlague
10-28-2009, 10:10 AM
*tear*
*hugs* It's okay, man. *tear*

Nicol Bolas
10-28-2009, 12:18 PM
The answer to this can be boiled down to a single question: will rally points help or hurt the player from effectively using Warp-In?

The implementation of any rally point mechanic is therefore key. Does each WarpGate have an individual rally point? Is the player properly informed when a rally point is lost (due to having Psi removed from the location)? How easy is it to produce a unit at a different location? How often does a player want to use the delocalized production that Warp-In provides?

You shouldn't build rally points into Warp-In until all of these questions can be satisfactorily answered. And some of these questions need serious testing to answer.

In short, if it needs it, it can be added later.

newcomplex
10-28-2009, 01:45 PM
Thats like saying the point of Proton Charge is to make you click on the mineral field every 30 seconds.

It is.

Kimera757
10-28-2009, 08:44 PM
I hear it chops off 10 seconds from the build times of all the gateway units (meaning the cooldown is 10 seconds shorter than the build times of gateways units) but I haven't seen any direct evidence of this so I don't know if it's true or not.

It's from a quote from a Battle Report, or possibly the BlizzCon 2008 exhibition match.


The implementation of any rally point mechanic is therefore key. Does each WarpGate have an individual rally point?

There's no difference. If you select five gateways and then push the rally hotkey, they all rally to the same spot. MBS makes this particular aspect meaningless. (Of course, you could rally them separately if you wanted to.)

Nicol Bolas
10-28-2009, 11:51 PM
If you select five gateways and then push the rally hotkey, they all rally to the same spot. MBS makes this particular aspect meaningless. (Of course, you could rally them separately if you wanted to.)

So exactly how would that work? If each WarpGate can have a separate rally point, what happens when you press "W" (the global hotkey for all WarpGates), and press "Z" for Zealot, where does it go? If 3 WarpGates go to 3 places, where do the units go?

This is a much more critical question than for regular production, since those rally points can basically go anywhere.

If all WarpGates share the same rally point, then you don't have that issue. It also makes it easier to know when a rally point has become invalid (due to lacking Psi), since there's only one to worry about.

So it isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

Norfindel
10-29-2009, 08:02 AM
Nicol, i think they could work the same than with the Gateways, just show a line pointing to every Warpgate rally point. A message "Rally point no longer valid" could appear when you lose power on the target, and be reset to the Warpgate, or the Warpgate could turn into a Gateway, or the rally point and it's line turn red, and the Warpgate not produce units anymore until corrected.

Without testing, it's difficult to be 100% sure if that would be acceptable, or would be a mess to play, but i think it's probably ok.

Anyways, i doubt Blizzard will do this, because they want this to be an advantage for skilled players, and less so for the casual players. If they only could create other macro mechanics that include meaningful decisions like this one, they would have a lot more acceptance.

ArcherofAiur
10-29-2009, 08:46 AM
So exactly how would that work? If each WarpGate can have a separate rally point, what happens when you press "W" (the global hotkey for all WarpGates), and press "Z" for Zealot, where does it go? If 3 WarpGates go to 3 places, where do the units go?


Ummm they would go to the three places. Not that complicated.

unentschieden
10-29-2009, 09:41 AM
Nicol, i think they could work the same than with the Gateways, just show a line pointing to every Warpgate rally point. A message "Rally point no longer valid" could appear when you lose power on the target, and be reset to the Warpgate, or the Warpgate could turn into a Gateway, or the rally point and it's line turn red, and the Warpgate not produce units anymore until corrected.

Without testing, it's difficult to be 100% sure if that would be acceptable, or would be a mess to play, but i think it's probably ok.

Anyways, i doubt Blizzard will do this, because they want this to be an advantage for skilled players, and less so for the casual players. If they only could create other macro mechanics that include meaningful decisions like this one, they would have a lot more acceptance.

I think it´s much more about keeping players from going insane if the oponent destroys a Proxypylon and the Protoss is drowned in 20 "Rallypoint lost" messages. Or everytime they move their Warpprism.

I´d want a Rallypoint for Warp-in as much as much as I´d want one for the Broodlords broodling(?) or the dying Hatcherys mantalings.

ArcherofAiur
10-29-2009, 09:44 AM
We should not have rally points on production buildings. This will keep players from going insane when they rally to a dropship that then gets destroyed.

n00bonicPlague
10-29-2009, 09:47 AM
I think the "where would the units go" issue is a problem with all production buildings, not just Warp Gates. It's something that is the player's responsibility to keep up with. If you're stupid enough to group a bunch of production buildings together that all have different rally points and all your reinforcements get scattered around the map because of it, it's your own fault.

ArcherofAiur
10-29-2009, 09:49 AM
I think the "where would the units go" issue is a problem with all production buildings, not just Warp Gates. It's something that is the player's responsibility to keep up with. If you're stupid enough to group a bunch of production buildings together that all have different rally points and all your reinforcements get scattered around the map because of it, it's your own fault.

Quoted 4 Truth