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View Full Version : Theorycrafting: Void Ray rework.



Sheliek
11-25-2012, 04:38 PM
I'm a bit exhausted when it comes to envisioning new things for units lately, but people keep mentioning that Blizzard has said they want to rework this unit.

I can't really see any drastic changes being done to this unit without completely changing the feel of the unit, but that's just me. Ideas?

DemolitionSquid
11-25-2012, 05:15 PM
They kinds shoved themselves into a corner on this one.
ATG Siege? Tempest.
ATA Siege? Tempest.
Air Anti-building? Oracle.
Air Spellcaster? Oracle.
ATA Light? Phoenix.
AtG Light? Phoenix.
All-around Capital Ship? Carrier.

I mean, the Void Ray only really has the niche its in now: sturdy, mid-priced, general ATA ATG unit, with increased power as it faces increasingly powerful enemies. Its basically the Brood War Scout, and I'm comfortable with that honestly.

Pr0nogo
11-25-2012, 05:43 PM
I don't think they should have units like the Brood War Scout in the game. 'Niche' is not an effective combat role. It's a flaw to design units in that manner.

DemolitionSquid
11-25-2012, 06:27 PM
I don't think they should have units like the Brood War Scout in the game. 'Niche' is not an effective combat role. It's a flaw to design units in that manner.

That's what I've been saying for 4 years. Blizzard ignores moi. I'm making the best of a bad situation.

Carsickness
11-25-2012, 06:50 PM
Air Toss seems pretty strong already. So I dunno.

Maybe give it the old tempest's anti ground shield thing? Or some sort of ability that unlocks upon it reaching max charge up?

Jconant
11-25-2012, 07:25 PM
I've been noticing toss has a really hard time against mass viking and mass corruptor; maybe adjust voidray to be more effective against large groups of other air units and less so against ground?

topsecret221
11-25-2012, 08:38 PM
What about giving the Void Ray a charged AoE ground attack to help make SG a viable opening against bio and zerg?

The_Blade
11-25-2012, 08:43 PM
I was thinking the Void Ray should now be a dedicated defensive/support unit. Protoss air is strong right now, but they need some sort of support.

Idea:

Give the Void Ray an ability called the "phase shield". This deploys a concave umbrella shield directly in front of the Void Ray. It will catch any incoming missiles at that angle but at the cost of shield energy. This cost is equivalent to the damage dealt by each missile. The Void Ray may activate "energy flux", when the shield is up. This ability will project the shield forward disabling enemy mechanical air units in contact with the shield. The amount of time designated for the disable is decided by the percent of shield energy remaining. While moving the shield still takes damages, but no longer prevents missile fire. While moving the shield also degrades over time losing shield points.

DemolitionSquid
11-25-2012, 08:52 PM
Phoenix, Void Ray, Oracle, Tempest, Carrier, Mothership. No Protoss air unit does splash damage. Give Void Ray splash. Mass Viking/Corrupter problem solved. Air-based anti-mass Locust/Zergling solved.

TheProgramer
11-25-2012, 11:49 PM
I have an idea. How 'bout you leave the Voidray fekking alone, and replace the Oracle's Pulsar Bean ability. Darn Blizzard.

Sheliek
11-26-2012, 02:08 AM
Phoenix, Void Ray, Oracle, Tempest, Carrier, Mothership. No Protoss air unit does splash damage. Give Void Ray splash. Mass Viking/Corrupter problem solved. Air-based anti-mass Locust/Zergling solved.

I thought the tempest did splash?

Oh, right. They removed that prior to the Beta. Shows how much attention I've been paying. Adding splash to the void ray seems a good enough idea in theory. Simple to implement, too. They can add it, and if it doesn't work out after a month or so, switch it back.

Triceron
11-26-2012, 03:48 AM
What about this

A) Maintain Attack while Moving, moves at speed slightly faster than corruptors.
B) Add an Upgrade that reduces damage from ground units.
C) While fully charged, Void Ray deals high damage at the cost of movement speed. Think of it as converting thruster energy to weapons.
D) New ability "Void Burst". Causes a splash damage blast that consumes all charge levels. Void Burst deals extra vs shields.


This makes the Void Ray have more maneuverability without any charges, letting them chase down enemies or leave. Void Ray now has more all-purpose use, being able to target heavy units with its main attack or use the Void Burst ability to take care of groups of small units quickly.

Void ray would be countered by AA and Micro. In the case of broodlord/corruptor combo, you'll still want to go tempest/stalker/archon. Void Ray would be a semi harass anti-ground unit.

PVP
Void Ray could be used to break Colossus/stalker combos. Reduce damage from ground could give it the edge it needs to focus down colossus, use of Void Burst could help disperse the death balls.

PVT
Reduce damage from ground could help it survive against bio armies, or force a mech army to bring more vikings. Against bio, target down medivacs and burst the marines.

PVZ
Probably the least effective in this matchup, but possibly use to harass. Reduce damage vs ground makes it more resilient than phoenix harass. Charge up on queens and overlords, use burst to soften up workers or units.

Carsickness
11-26-2012, 07:43 PM
D) New ability "Void Burst". Causes a splash damage blast that consumes all charge levels. Void Burst deals extra vs shields.



I like that one. Gives a Toss play the choice of continued high DPS to a single target, or an AOE attack at the cost of that DPS.
Something strategic in the mid game to think about. Obviously in the late game it would just be players waiting for the AOE to charge, but w/e.

Maybe make it some sort of of DoT stye aoe? "Psionic discharge" or something like that:
Units take psionic damage over time, and shields take double damage. Might prevent battles degenerating into cooldown battles.

DemolitionSquid
11-26-2012, 07:49 PM
Ugh, ya'll love makin this shit complicated by needlessly adding abilities.

Twilice
11-26-2012, 09:20 PM
What's wrong with Void Ray?

Triceron
11-26-2012, 09:28 PM
Better than 1A giant ball of win.

Pr0nogo
11-26-2012, 10:38 PM
Better than 1A giant ball of win.

lol, like the rest of the game? :rolleyes:

Jconant
11-27-2012, 10:46 PM
"What's wrong with the void ray?"

Its a unit that can attack air and ground, but when it comes to a giant ball of vikings or corruptors...it doesn't hold up well.

Twilice
11-28-2012, 08:01 AM
So wait? It's bad vs units that are supposed to counter it?

Hm, and I don't even think corruptors are good vs void rays unless you really have a massed amount of corruptors, which means less good ground army for you to fight.

Triceron
11-28-2012, 12:12 PM
Corruptors become brood lords, so they end up being a very good late game investment if you already dealt with enemy air.

flak4321
11-28-2012, 07:07 PM
From my low level experience, I've never had an issue vs. corruptors. Then again I usually have a good mix of units and force some corruptors into brood mode before I strike. Where mass voids run into issues vs zerg is if you over invest in voids, get scouted, and the zerg goes infestor hydra with max upgrades (and you don't have enough ground to properly occupy the hydras). Straight hydra works well also, but a lot of tosses counter with void/chargelot while getting archons and either collos or storm. You need to switch back to collo/chargelot/ht (or archon) in a hurry. Upgraded mass mutas isn't to shabby here either, depending on support units.

Vs. terran, the bigger threat to voids is rines and medis. Vikings fire too slowly to win at even strength. Viking range makes microing viable, but a good player knows how to force units to stay engaged (attacking a high value target your ground troops have already passed such as an orbital your cahrgelots passed up to mangle his tank d). Straight up, the vikings actually have to outnumber the voids to win, even at 3/3, not accounting for micro.

My own micro is a project in progress, so this analysis is based on a-moves, redirects, and minor microing.

All of that said, my best thought for tweaking the void ray would be two-fold: reduce the base dps by 1 and the charged dps by 2 (per second) AND restore the speed upgrade, albeit in a mildly reduced fashion to be determined, perhaps a 10-15% increase.

I like the splash idea, but I suggested something similar in the bnet forums about 3-4 weeks ago and was resoundingly shot down, being told that toss has way too much splash as is. They cited storm and Archons for anti-air splash, and added collos for anti ground. Most complaints revolved around the suscetibility of vikings to storm and the ongoing qqing about terran mech, with the addition that splash from an air unit would overly weaken the bio ball and basically make mech pointless in tvp.


Ugh, ya'll love makin this shit complicated by needlessly adding abilities.

Indeed.

Sheliek
11-29-2012, 03:53 PM
Hm. Make the phoenix the generalist, and then make void rays AA only, with some sort of ability that affects ground?

DemolitionSquid
11-29-2012, 07:48 PM
Hm. Make the phoenix the generalist, and then make void rays AA only, with some sort of ability that affects ground?

That is the most amazingly subtle troll I have ever read on this forum. Bravo sir, fucking bravo.

Sheliek
11-29-2012, 08:02 PM
How was that caught that quick? Am impressed, Demo.

DemolitionSquid
11-29-2012, 08:41 PM
How was the caught that quick? Am impressed, Demo.

As a professional troll, its my job to notice works of art.

Alar
12-01-2012, 02:44 AM
What about giving the Void Ray a charged AoE ground attack to help make SG a viable opening against bio and zerg?
They could always change the 'prism' of the Void Ray to shoot out several beams rather than one that grows more powerful. This, I think, would be reason enough to keep it around. Maybe a special upgrade that increases how many targets it can hit to boost its damage output.

What do you think is reasonable? Three at first, then upgrade to four or five?

topsecret221
12-01-2012, 02:31 PM
They could always change the 'prism' of the Void Ray to shoot out several beams rather than one that grows more powerful. This, I think, would be reason enough to keep it around. Maybe a special upgrade that increases how many targets it can hit to boost its damage output.

What do you think is reasonable? Three at first, then upgrade to four or five?

Hitting 3 targets at once (if it isn't AoE) is too random, which is the same reason that the "Omegalisk" wasn't added to the multiplayer.

The other thing is that it overlaps a little bit with the carrier, with the ability to hit so many things at once on a single attack move, except it's channeled instead of little unit bursts.

Interesting take on it, though.

Triceron
12-01-2012, 07:36 PM
Doesn't the Battlecruiser attack multiple targets?

Twilice
12-01-2012, 07:41 PM
Nopp,

Maybe my gameplay is far outdated, but I don't get the void ray change. It seems better than before, considering the mass swarm host plays we will probably see in HotS.

topsecret221
12-01-2012, 07:48 PM
Doesn't the Battlecruiser attack multiple targets?

No, only the campaign Hyperion does that. Normal BCs attack a single target at a time.

Pr0nogo
12-01-2012, 08:18 PM
The Hyperion launches an area of effect attack on ground units - it just looks like a volley of lasers, whereas it acts like a bomb.

flak4321
12-03-2012, 07:14 PM
Nopp,

Maybe my gameplay is far outdated, but I don't get the void ray change. It seems better than before, considering the mass swarm host plays we will probably see in HotS.

That's actually a good point. While the tempest fills the same role, voids may be better in some situations on a mobility standpoint.

Which leads me to a question for everyone: I understand better the overlaps and I agree with them. How would the situation be changed if, because VR are a dark templar tech, we add an upgrade to the cyb core to extend blink to the VR?

STrategically it adds to the element of surprise and would increase the ability, on some maps, to charge on rocks. Charge, blink in, do damage, blink out...

DemolitionSquid
12-03-2012, 10:39 PM
That's actually a good point. While the tempest fills the same role, voids may be better in some situations on a mobility standpoint.

Which leads me to a question for everyone: I understand better the overlaps and I agree with them. How would the situation be changed if, because VR are a dark templar tech, we add an upgrade to the cyb core to extend blink to the VR?

STrategically it adds to the element of surprise and would increase the ability, on some maps, to charge on rocks. Charge, blink in, do damage, blink out...

Giving two units the same ability is not gonna happen, even if it was a good idea. I mean, Blizzard turned the Oracle's Revelation into junk because it was basically scanner sweep.

Jconant
12-03-2012, 11:47 PM
which was too bad, using oracle + tempest was a good counter to mass swarmhost.

Triceron
12-04-2012, 12:55 AM
Not really, cuz one of the more effective strats was Swarmhost + corruptor/overseer. Since Swarm Host is so effective at controlling space on the ground, they'll usually have decent anti-air support.

flak4321
12-04-2012, 09:41 PM
Giving two units the same ability is not gonna happen, even if it was a good idea. I mean, Blizzard turned the Oracle's Revelation into junk because it was basically scanner sweep.

It has happened: rines and rauders can both stim, while ghosts and banshees can cloak as long as they have the energy and upgrade. We can throw in void ray charge and oracle pulsar beam. One could even make a broodlord/swarm host argument and a more tenuous argument concerning broodlords, swarm hosts and infestors (infested terrans vs broodlings/locusts), even though in this case broods and hosts lack a true ability.

I would however tend to agree with any valid argument as to why my blink ray idea may be bad if anyone wants to give one.

DemolitionSquid
12-04-2012, 10:03 PM
It has happened: rines and rauders can both stim, while ghosts and banshees can cloak as long as they have the energy and upgrade. We can throw in void ray charge and oracle pulsar beam. One could even make a broodlord/swarm host argument and a more tenuous argument concerning broodlords, swarm hosts and infestors (infested terrans vs broodlings/locusts), even though in this case broods and hosts lack a true ability.

I would however tend to agree with any valid argument as to why my blink ray idea may be bad if anyone wants to give one.

I'll admit Stim is an exception, but Cloaking would be too hard to have in multiple forms. Requiring several units per race to have cloaking ability necessitates overlap. Also, while Broodlings and Locusts are spawned in a similar manner, there are several noticeable differences between the two units and their methods of creation, enough that I would not consider them clone abilities.

As to why your Blink Ray would be a bad idea, it's because it would almost completely replace the Stalker. Both are armored, hit air and ground, deal extra damage to armored. The Void Ray costs more, but it can fly, which is already more valuable than Blink. Giving it the ability to Blink on top of flight so it can avoid damage effectively would completely remove any reason to build Stalkers beyond the first minutes of the game.

Triceron
12-04-2012, 10:30 PM
Whatever it may be, I'm in favour of the voidray having an active ability.

flak4321
12-05-2012, 05:18 PM
I'll admit Stim is an exception, but Cloaking would be too hard to have in multiple forms. Requiring several units per race to have cloaking ability necessitates overlap. Also, while Broodlings and Locusts are spawned in a similar manner, there are several noticeable differences between the two units and their methods of creation, enough that I would not consider them clone abilities.

As to why your Blink Ray would be a bad idea, it's because it would almost completely replace the Stalker. Both are armored, hit air and ground, deal extra damage to armored. The Void Ray costs more, but it can fly, which is already more valuable than Blink. Giving it the ability to Blink on top of flight so it can avoid damage effectively would completely remove any reason to build Stalkers beyond the first minutes of the game.

Now that's a much better response, good sir. I can relate to the overlap issue, and I will relent. Admittedly though, the game has significant overlap as is so finding ways to tweak the old is not easy. I like to posit suggestions like this just to see where the creative momentum is headed. ;)