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View Full Version : Beta Patch #6 - a.k.a. "Hellbat"



DemolitionSquid
10-12-2012, 03:42 PM
Interesting. Link here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6863526811


Greetings all -

We will be bringing the beta down shortly to make the following balance changes. Thanks again for all the great help you have contributed in testing Swarm; we look forward to receiving more of your input on the changes listed below. Hop in there, play a bunch of games and let us know!

Protoss
Mothership Core
- When Purify is cast on a player’s Nexus, it now also grants detection to 13 range. Energize has been removed.

Oracle
- The cost of Entomb has been lowered from 100 to 75, while the duration has been increased from 50 to 60 seconds.
- Revelation has been changed to the following:
This ability will now also work on buildings, granting 3 vision around every unit it hits. The duration has been increased from 45 seconds to 60 seconds, and the cost has been increased from 50 to 75. This ability will no longer grant detection. This ability will not affect cloaked targets, even if you have detection of them at the time. The button arrangement for this unit has been adjusted to list Void Siphon first and Entomb last.

Tempest
- This unit’s native bonus damage to massive units has been removed.This unit no longer requires a Fleet Beacon.We have added a new weapon upgrade called Quantic Reactor at the Fleet Beacon which will grant Tempest attacks +35 damage to massive units.
- Quantic Reactor costs 200/200.The cost of this unit has been changed from 300/300 to 300/200.The supply cost for this unit has changed from 6 to 4. The scale of this unit has been lowered from 1 to 0.9.

Sentry
- Hallucination no longer requires research.

Zerg
Viper
- Viper acceleration has been increased from 2.125 to 3. The radius of Blinding Cloud has increased from 1.5 to 2.

Spore Crawler
- This unit no longer requires an Evolution Chamber.

Terran
Widow Mine
- The setup time for this unit has been increased from 2 seconds to 3 seconds.

Battle Hellion
-This unit has been renamed to “Hellbat.”

Pr0nogo
10-12-2012, 03:46 PM
Hellbat

died.

RODTHEGOD
10-12-2012, 04:10 PM
Hellbat

Is that supposed to be a joke?

Hawki
10-12-2012, 04:12 PM
I'm going to call Satan. Hopefully he has some vacancies for the "hellbat."

Seriously, who on Earth thought that "hellbat" was a good name?:confused:

MulletBen
10-12-2012, 04:53 PM
Didn't people (DSquid) start calling the Battle Hellion the Hellbat because of its similarities to firebats? It's like they're not even trying to pretend it's a different unit.

In other news, revelation is nearly pointless without detection now, void siphon is still useless, tempest has no idea what it's supposed to be used for, widow "mine" still OP.

I do really like the option of using the mothership core for detection. I still don't like the direction they've gone with making the mothership core used offensively, i.e. adding to the deathball, but this specific change I like. Not so sure about the reasons for removing energize, it seemed like a pretty cool ability to me, with a lot of utility. I like that sentries no longer require a research for hallucination. It might be a little strong early game, but nobody really researched hallucination anyway, no matter how many sentries they got.

Blinding cloud buff seems reasonable, I don't have beta so I don't know if vipers were to slow before, it seems like zerg could use a couple of slower units, but whatever.

I can only assume that the spore crawler change was made as a response to widow mines, which I think is just intrinsically wrong. As someone who has often forgotten to get an evolution chamber, and faced dire consequences from banshees, phoenixes, void rays and DTs, I think this change makes it far too easy to respond to cloaked units or air threats. It might be necessary against widow mines, but it's certainly not necessary in WoL. I think this is a problem with widow mines, not spore crawlers, but it does bring zerg detection closer in line with Terran and newly-bufed protoss.

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9hLcRU5wE4

Quirel
10-12-2012, 04:57 PM
Honestly, I think "Hellbat" is infinitely better than some of the alternatives, like "Hellbringer".

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to pop over to the Protoss thread to hear the theorycrafting.

... nothing?

Hawki
10-12-2012, 05:04 PM
Honestly, I think "Hellbat" is infinitely better than some of the alternatives, like "Hellbringer".

Assuming that's a reference to the Halo Wars unit, I don't have a problem with that name, as we've already got "Helljumpers," and considering the different arms and armament of ODSTs and Hellbringers, it falls into the "similar enough and different enough" territory.

Hellbats, though, doesn't work for me, because at least with "battle hellion" it makes sense, in that the hellion is the base unit. "Hellbat" is a deviation from this, and falls into "too similar"territory for the firebat, making me ask again, why not just keep them separate units? Kind of rhetorical, but still...

Quirel
10-12-2012, 05:39 PM
Assuming that's a reference to the Halo Wars unit, I don't have a problem with that name, as we've already got "Helljumpers," and considering the different arms and armament of ODSTs and Hellbringers, it falls into the "similar enough and different enough" territory.
While I appreciate the connection between Helljumpers and Hellbringers, Hellbringers always sounded goofy to me. They bring Hell with them?

And if we want to overthink it (Being the geeks and nerds that we are) if ODSTs jump feet first into Hell, do the Helljumpers bring it with them? Is Hell referring to the pyrosene?

I do what my friend does and call them "Hellraisers" or "Hellrazers", or even just "Pyros".


Hellbats, though, doesn't work for me, because at least with "battle hellion" it makes sense, in that the hellion is the base unit. "Hellbat" is a deviation from this, and falls into "too similar"territory for the firebat, making me ask again, why not just keep them separate units? Kind of rhetorical, but still...
Eh, "Battle Hellions" sounded too wordy in the first place. Other than that, I guess I agree.

Sheliek
10-12-2012, 06:00 PM
Hellbat is a joke, right?

Triceron
10-12-2012, 06:02 PM
Might as well call em hellbats now, it's definitely easier to say than 'Battle hellions' and helps distinguish it from the regular Hellion units. I don't like or hate the name, I just like that it's more practical to say.

RamiZ
10-12-2012, 06:22 PM
They pretty much changed the Tempest like what that guy suggested in his long thread. ^^
Overall, I like the patch. I dislike the Energize removal, got mixed feelings about the Hallucination, and I feel like Spore Crawlers buff is stupid...

Widow Mine nerf, Viper buff, Tempest buffs, great! We will see how it will work out, but I think we will have a lot more Tempest rushes/pressure builds/all-in. ^^

Noctis
10-12-2012, 07:11 PM
in short. protoss shall never lose carriers again. they the bosses of the protoss fleet. now just fix them blizzard.

widow mine change is just facepalm. hellbat? honestly i like it better than battle hellion

the oracle is also slowly becoming confused, on one hand i love the entomb harass but on the other that can only go on for so long, after that do i really NEED an oracle? seriously blizzard must be trying to save their crazy toss ideas for LoV

sandwich_bird
10-12-2012, 08:23 PM
It's faster to pronounce Hellbat so I'm ok with it.

DemolitionSquid
10-12-2012, 11:28 PM
So, right after I posted this thread, I had to go out and only just got home. Now I can finally respond properly to this properly.

Hellbat? Really?

I'M MAD AT BLIZZARD.

Triceron
10-13-2012, 12:39 AM
And widow mines are still widow mines. GG.

Rake
10-13-2012, 01:57 AM
With purify having detection, zerg not needing evo chambers for spores and terran having imba-scan, will anyone ever loose to stealth again?

topsecret221
10-13-2012, 01:59 AM
...will anyone ever loose to stealth again?

Were they ever tight to stealth? :D

mr. peasant
10-13-2012, 04:17 AM
So, right after I posted this thread, I had to go out and only just got home. Now I can finally respond properly to this properly.

Hellbat? Really?

I'M MAD AT BLIZZARD.

Well, at least Blizzard is now being honest about what they are. ;)




Eh, "Battle Hellions" sounded too wordy in the first place. Other than that, I guess I agree.

I dunno... why not just keep the name as 'Hellion'? Sure worked for the Siege Tank and the Viking.

In any case, Hellbat is not a good name whatsoever. If you ask me, 'Hellbat' sounds like a badly pronounced fish.

phazonjunkie
10-13-2012, 05:14 AM
Battle Hellion
-This unit has been renamed to “Hellbat.”

I'm torn. On the one hand, as mr. peasant said it's good Blizzard's finally stop trying to kid themselves (and everyone else) about what they really are.

On the other hand:

http://en.rian.ru/images/17384/76/173847600.jpg

I suspect he's turning over in his grave....

and smiling...

Carsickness
10-13-2012, 09:24 AM
Spore Crawler
- This unit no longer requires an Evolution Chamber.

So does it require any building at all? I hope at least a spawning pool, because ZvZ is just going to have a lot of spore crawler harass in each others bases at the extreme early game. bye bye overlords.

It seems like it would nullify any Air strats vs. Zerg though. Maybe if they re-debuffed the spore to burrow slowly once again. We'll see.....


Sentry
- Hallucination no longer requires research.

Cool change, I like it. Though it might be overpowered early game due to lack of detection. Should be fun though :)
Won't be as powerful a change as it would, had it been done to WoL, since I do believe pylon power doesn't work up cliffs anymore.


Mothership Core
- When Purify is cast on a player’s Nexus, it now also grants detection to 13 range. Energize has been removed.

Probably meant to counter widow mines and swarm hosts from just running into your mineral line and denying that expo until you can get an observer out. Again, nice change.

Good patch Blizzard. Definitely a step in the right direction.

TheEconomist
10-13-2012, 09:37 AM
I'm being trolled, right?

flak4321
10-13-2012, 11:05 AM
For those of you looking for a mid game use for the Oracle, White-ra (of course) used revelation on a Zerg swarm host ball with hydra support and used the ability to snipe swarm hosts with other units. Not sure how this tric will change with the inability to strike cloaked units now. Is cloaked treated like burrow in regards to these kind of things?

I'll post the video if I can relocate it, but if you want to look it's on Husky's youtube I think. Been a couple days since I watched it. ;)

Nevermind, here we go:

tsxEBDQWZFE

Carsickness
10-13-2012, 11:56 AM
Ya that was a cool game eh.
Though the revelation ability no longer reveals cloaked (or burrowed) units anymore, so that strategy is out of the question now.

It's really interesting to see the meta game change with every game! Game's are getting more and more epic with every patch :)

Here's another sweet game (patch #5):
cid2T-2eLsY

This one is by far the most amazing PvT I've seen in awhile :)
God I love WhiteRa

---

On topic though; with the change in hallucination, i'm thinking that blink Stalkers are going to get out of control. Especially in PvP.

Alar
10-13-2012, 12:48 PM
Wait, wait, wait.

Zerg get detection right off the bat now? Am I reading that right? Please tell me that's not the case...

DemolitionSquid
10-13-2012, 01:06 PM
I'm up! Slept pretty badly because I had a nightmare I was being chased by Hellbats.

Time to get my full thoughts on this now that I'm awake. First, Blizzard's excuse for this godawful patch.


Mothership Core

Energize is mainly an ability that caters to the Oracle, so that Entomb can be cast twice at once, right when the Oracle comes into play. We felt that, rather than having to balance spell casters around this ability, it was better to just balance spells on their own. Energize seemed a bit limited, and on the design side, we felt it was not an interesting spell that has many viable uses.

Widow Mine

We’ve increased the Widow Mine setup time from 2 to 3 seconds. We wanted a change to the Widow Mine that makes it slightly more difficult to use them in combat, but we didn’t want to eliminate this usage. Our current goal for the Widow Mine is for them to be very all-around and usable in many key locations on the map, good on the defense, and good in combination with your army. We think the Widow Mine has great potential as the new core unit for the Terran, and we want to be extra careful in making sure that it remains a powerful option even when players start figuring out how to fight against them.

One issue we’re seeing, however, is all-in rushes using early Widow Mines are a bit too much, so we’re trying a couple of changes for the other races in order to help with this specific area:

Protoss Mothership Core’s Purify ability now also serves as a detector.Spore Crawlers now require Spawning Pool (not the Evolution Chamber).

Oracle

Because Energize is removed, we felt it’s necessary to improve Entomb in order to compensate for their reduced strength.

Revelation has been changed to be more of an army scouting option, due to Mothership Core Purify now being a detector.

Sentry

We’ve been getting a lot of feedback from lower-level Protoss players saying that gateway units are weak because Warp Gates are too good, Force Fields are too difficult to use, etc. We’ve also noticed that scouting in Heart of the Swarm is more important than ever due to new threats out there.

We’re comfortable with the current power level of gateway units and their fit in the Protoss arsenal. It’s not uncommon for mass Zealots or lots of Stalkers to do awesome things. Perhaps Sentries can be a bit difficult to utilize, but this is only because this unit revolves so much around good Force Field usage.

At this time, we feel that removing the research requirement on Hallucination is something we can try in the beta.

Tempest

We’re trying a new direction with the Tempest. With the Fleet Beacon requirement removed, it will be possible to use Tempests as long-range, low-DPS harassers in the mid-game. The counter to Tempests would be to kill the units that are spotting for the Tempest until air units come into play. This is a purely experimental change, so please take some time to play with it and give us your feedback.

Viper

Thanks to a lot of feedback from many of our beta participants, we’ve decided to increase the radius of Blinding Cloud. Please play with and against the new Viper, and let us know how it goes.

Thank you so much for playing the beta and helping us improve Heart of the Swarm. As always, we aren’t trying to solve every single issue and potential issue with this beta patch, and we hope to continue making Heart of the Swarm better and better with each update.

Let us divine.


Mothership Core
- When Purify is cast on a player’s Nexus, it now also grants detection to 13 range. Energize has been removed.

1. Early detection is fine. But if Protoss wanted it on a fucking building, they'd build goddamn Photon Cannons.

2. Energize... "limited... not interesting... no variable uses."

ARE YOU ALL FUCKING RETARDED?

Nexus, Sentry, High Templar, Oracle, Phoenix. Refilling the energy on these units has no strategic value? Really? What about the Orbital Command, Ghost, Thor, Medevac, Banshee, Raven, Battle Cruiser, Queen, Overseer, Infestor, Viper? Energize has no value in combination with these units in team games? How fucking dense are you cocksuckers?


Oracle
- The cost of Entomb has been lowered from 100 to 75, while the duration has been increased from 50 to 60 seconds.
- Revelation has been changed to the following:
This ability will now also work on buildings, granting 3 vision around every unit it hits. The duration has been increased from 45 seconds to 60 seconds, and the cost has been increased from 50 to 75. This ability will no longer grant detection. This ability will not affect cloaked targets, even if you have detection of them at the time. The button arrangement for this unit has been adjusted to list Void Siphon first and Entomb last.

1. You keep buffing Entomb, even though everyone agrees the problem isn't power, but lack of energy competition on the Oracle and lack of micro in the ability. You're literally saying you think Entomb is a more engaging, interesting, and variable use ability than Energize. Go to fucking hell.

2. Revelation no longer gives detection. You claim you agree Protoss needs another way to detect than Observer, to help Templar and Stargate tech routes become more viable. But then you remove it from Revelation, and instead give Protoss another base-focused static detection method. How the fuck are you not seeing the hypocrisy and logical disconnect there? The Mothership Core itself should have been the detector, not the fucking Purify spell! Plus its so early that it negates most viability of the Banshee and DT rush.

3. You didn't touch Void Siphon in this patch, even though its so useless the only ability used less than it is the Thor's 250MM Cannons. Asshats.


Tempest
- This unit’s native bonus damage to massive units has been removed.This unit no longer requires a Fleet Beacon.We have added a new weapon upgrade called Quantic Reactor at the Fleet Beacon which will grant Tempest attacks +35 damage to massive units.
- Quantic Reactor costs 200/200.The cost of this unit has been changed from 300/300 to 300/200.The supply cost for this unit has changed from 6 to 4. The scale of this unit has been lowered from 1 to 0.9.

300/200. Long range. 30 base damage. Congratulations. The Tempest is now a fucking Colossus.


Sentry
- Hallucination no longer requires research.

Scouting is important, especially early game so you don't die to things like the new Widow Mine rushes. If only there was a way to stop those kinds of things from dropping into your base, burrowing, and killing your workers before you got detection. Like, oh, I don't know, the new Purify detection passive?

... overcompensate much?


Viper
- Viper acceleration has been increased from 2.125 to 3. The radius of Blinding Cloud has increased from 1.5 to 2.

Blinding cloud was terrible, everything could escape it instantly. At least at 2 range it might make worthwhile, and the speed boost will help the extremely low HP Viper live long enough to be worth its cost. Holy shit, you acctually made a useful improvement to a unit! Maybe there's still hope for you!...


Spore Crawler
- This unit no longer requires an Evolution Chamber.

... nope. Everyone, say goodbye to the Banshee and DT rush. They're dead tactics now.


Widow Mine
- The setup time for this unit has been increased from 2 seconds to 3 seconds.

Heaven fucking forbid you balance the power of a unit through its tech tree position. Clearly, the answer is to give everyone earlier detection so that 2 other rush strategies become obsolete just you can slightly nerf another. I've seen at least a dozen threads across 3 forums suggesting you make Widow Mines require Armory, to bring them in line with the timings of other cloaked units. But NOPE! You blow your load and give everything and its mother early detection. Is this the fucking Oprah show? Will I find Probes and Drones with detection under my seat next patch?


Battle Hellion
-This unit has been renamed to “Hellbat.”

Fuck it. Fuck you fucking lazy, uncreative fuckers.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28299476.jpg

The_Blade
10-13-2012, 01:07 PM
Well, they had detection instantly in broodwar :P Actually I remember some complains about he overlord not being a detector in SC2 ^^

Pr0nogo
10-13-2012, 02:24 PM
Brood War was an entirely different game. They didn't remake Brood War, they're just leaning closer to remaking its concepts without calling them the same names - albeit with only four letters the difference (hint: not Fuckbat).

DemolitionSquid
10-13-2012, 02:28 PM
Personally I would prefer Fuckbat to Hellbat. At least it would be an accurate portrayal of how much Blizzard hates the people who play its games.

RamiZ
10-13-2012, 02:36 PM
Come on Demo, you are really overreacting to this patch... I mean, the patch isn't some super cool patch, they are trying things out, if they don't work, they will change them, but a lot of things that they have changed makes a lot more sense than what you are giving them credit for.

DemolitionSquid
10-13-2012, 02:45 PM
Come on Demo, you are really overreacting to this patch... I mean, the patch isn't some super cool patch, they are trying things out, if they don't work, they will change them, but a lot of things that they have changed makes a lot more sense than what you are giving them credit for.

Patches aren't meant to be "super cool." They're meant to fix things that are broken or unbalanced, and to try new ideas that make sense. From my point of view, the only changes in this patch that make a modicum of logic are the increased Blinding Could radius, increased Widow burrow time, and maybe the change to the Tempest. Even those changes are minor moves in the right direction. Every other point in this patch looks like Blizzard was tossing back jaegerbombs as they hit random keys as they pissed on monitors displaying everyone's forum suggestions.

topsecret221
10-13-2012, 05:06 PM
Patches do that in final stages of beta. In early beta, patches can do whatever.

DemolitionSquid
10-13-2012, 05:30 PM
Patches do that in final stages of beta. In early beta, patches can do whatever.

Within reason. WITHIN. REASON.

There is no reason in this patch. No logic, no common sense, no acknowledgement of sane, coherent thought.

Hawki
10-13-2012, 05:33 PM
I have to wonder though, the kind of changes we're seeing...I dunno, it feels like the kind of stuff that should have been played around with pre-beta. While I'm not much of a multiplayer guy, actions such as outright removing the Warhound and giving the Oracle every ability under the sun, shouldn't their roles have been more solidified prior to public beta? WoL had lots of units removed over the course of its development, but I don't recall its own beta having this much...fluidity.:(

Triceron
10-14-2012, 02:42 AM
Better that these 'wild and crazy' patches happen in the Beta than at release. And we've seen stuff this crazy in release as well.

I'm sure they have internal patches that fix and fine-tune a lot of the numbers, but I'm sure they release broken units into the game on purpose just to see how players react. First they make the unit intentionally abusable so players use them in the most extreme fashion, then they dial it back and see if those strategies are still effective or not. It's not simply about stomping out every cheese-potential before it happens, rather it's about figuring out if they can be controlled.

I still remember a lot of this happening in Warcraft 3's balance in the beta, where they intentionally made new spells and units powerful in test builds, and reined in the numbers after they were in common use. If people don't even use a new spell because an existing spell is just as effective, then it's going to be hard to test. If new units were completely balanced to begin with, then you really have little reason to deviate from your normal strategy.

RamiZ
10-14-2012, 03:09 AM
Within reason. WITHIN. REASON.

There is no reason in this patch. No logic, no common sense, no acknowledgement of sane, coherent thought.

There is a reason behind their changing, just because you don't know about them, that doesn't mean that reasons don't exists.

mr. peasant
10-14-2012, 03:32 AM
Better that these 'wild and crazy' patches happen in the Beta than at release. And we've seen stuff this crazy in release as well.

I'm sure they have internal patches that fix and fine-tune a lot of the numbers, but I'm sure they release broken units into the game on purpose just to see how players react. First they make the unit intentionally abusable so players use them in the most extreme fashion, then they dial it back and see if those strategies are still effective or not. It's not simply about stomping out every cheese-potential before it happens, rather it's about figuring out if they can be controlled.

I still remember a lot of this happening in Warcraft 3's balance in the beta, where they intentionally made new spells and units powerful in test builds, and reined in the numbers after they were in common use. If people don't even use a new spell because an existing spell is just as effective, then it's going to be hard to test. If new units were completely balanced to begin with, then you really have little reason to deviate from your normal strategy.

However, Blizzard is barely reigning in Spider Mines even after the data they've collected; which suggests the current state might very well be the power level they are aiming for. Instead, they are rebalancing everything else and altering the tech tree significantly in order to accommodate it.

I'm starting to wonder ifBlizzard is intentionally cooking up strange and unorthodox solutions to perceived balance issues to deliberately avoid doing what fan feedback is suggesting them to do.

TheEconomist
10-14-2012, 08:50 AM
I'm starting to wonder ifBlizzard is intentionally cooking up strange and unorthodox solutions to perceived balance issues to deliberately avoid doing what fan feedback is suggesting them to do.

Whoa, I just had major deja vu. Which one of you chronic complainers said during WoL beta?

DemolitionSquid
10-14-2012, 11:49 AM
I could see it. Blizzard's legal team breathing down Dutin's neck, saying if he implements anything the forums suggest, the company could be sued and forced to pay out the forumite for their copyrighted idea.

Triceron
10-14-2012, 01:07 PM
what exact feedback are they ignoring again? Not exactly sure what you guys are talking about right now. I'm also not sure what's being considered unorthodox and why it's a bad thing either.

The detection options are the biggest wtf change, but I can see why they're implementing it, considering the Widow mine can still attack air and deter aerial detectors. This gives Zerg and Toss more viable options without making detection OP.

mr. peasant
10-14-2012, 01:09 PM
I could see it. Blizzard's legal team breathing down Dutin's neck, saying if he implements anything the forums suggest, the company could be sued and forced to pay out the forumite for their copyrighted idea.

Or at the very least be required to acknowledge and credit said person for the contribution.



what exact feedback are they ignoring again? Not exactly sure what you guys are talking about right now. I'm also not sure what's being considered unorthodox and why it's a bad thing either.

The detection options are the biggest wtf change, but I can see why they're implementing it, considering the Widow mine can still attack air and deter aerial detectors. This gives Zerg and Toss more viable options without making detection OP.

You pretty much answered your own question. The official forum was inundated with threads commenting on how the Widow Mine was OP following the release of Patch 5; with numerous requests to significantly nerf it coupled with a number of suggestions on how to do so. Instead, Blizzard is going for a more roundabout solution, by buffing/tweaking everything else around it to better counter the Widow Mine (which has been left relatively untouched) even though said changes carry far bigger repercussions to the metagame.

DemolitionSquid
10-14-2012, 01:12 PM
what exact feedback are they ignoring again? Not exactly sure what you guys are talking about right now. I'm also not sure what's being considered unorthodox and why it's a bad thing either.

The detection options are the biggest wtf change, but I can see why they're implementing it, considering the Widow mine can still attack air and deter aerial detectors. This gives Zerg and Toss more viable options without making detection OP.

It DOES make detection OP because it completely destroys all early cloaked aggression. No more DT rushes, no more Banshee rushes, no more crazy fast cloaked Ghost nuking, no more burrow-move Roach harassment. They're hurting the early game by crippling old strategies.

Triceron
10-14-2012, 01:14 PM
That's a dumb idea. As soon as they do that, people would jump on them for being lazy with ideas instead of commend them for taking fan feedback. Then you'll have people getting butthurt that X person got their ideas accepted but not their own, and Blizzard would have a whole mess on their hands dealing with PR.

Triceron
10-14-2012, 01:21 PM
It DOES make detection OP because it completely destroys all early cloaked aggression. No more DT rushes, no more Banshee rushes, no more crazy fast cloaked Ghost nuking, no more burrow-move Roach harassment. They're hurting the early game by crippling old strategies.

Removing the evo chamber requirement =/= free spore crawlers. People will still not expect a cloak rush if it happens. Now they can make a few spore crawlers without an evo chamber - like they wouldn't have an evo chamber by the time there's banshees/DTs/Ghost with Nuke? It only stops the Zerg player from being completely screwed for not having Evo Chamber/Lair Tech vs cloaked units, which should be the case anyways. Terrans, and now Protoss, have options that aren't tech-required too.

I'm not sure about the Protoss change since I don't follow it as much in beta. I'm not sure what tech Mothership Core is and how early it is, so I can't comment much on that. Not sure if it would prevent all strats said above either.

mr. peasant
10-14-2012, 01:32 PM
Removing the evo chamber requirement =/= free spore crawlers. People will still not expect a cloak rush if it happens. Now they can make a few spore crawlers without an evo chamber - like they wouldn't have an evo chamber by the time there's banshees/DTs/Ghost with Nuke? It only stops the Zerg player from being completely screwed for not having Evo Chamber/Lair Tech vs cloaked units, which should be the case anyways. Terrans, and now Protoss, have options that aren't tech-required too.

I'm not sure about the Protoss change since I don't follow it as much in beta. I'm not sure what tech Mothership Core is and how early it is, so I can't comment much on that. Not sure if it would prevent all strats said above either.

Maybe the changes are good in the grand scheme of things. Maybe they're not. Who knows? Either way, it's still a very roundabout and messy way to address the Spider Mine issue due to its ramification on other (long established) strategies.

Maybe these other strategies were in need of tweaking/fixing. However, that wasn't why Blizzard framed these changes. No, they were very much exclusively in the context of fixing the Spider Mine. Case in point:


Widow Mine

We’ve increased the Widow Mine setup time from 2 to 3 seconds. We wanted a change to the Widow Mine that makes it slightly more difficult to use them in combat, but we didn’t want to eliminate this usage. Our current goal for the Widow Mine is for them to be very all-around and usable in many key locations on the map, good on the defense, and good in combination with your army. We think the Widow Mine has great potential as the new core unit for the Terran, and we want to be extra careful in making sure that it remains a powerful option even when players start figuring out how to fight against them.

One issue we’re seeing, however, is all-in rushes using early Widow Mines are a bit too much, so we’re trying a couple of changes for the other races in order to help with this specific area:

Protoss Mothership Core’s Purify ability now also serves as a detector.
Spore Crawlers now require Spawning Pool (not the Evolution Chamber). (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6864316601)

Triceron
10-14-2012, 01:49 PM
I still don't see why it's a bad thing.

Remember when SCVs used to have 60hp? They were nerfed to 40 as the norm with all other workers. The context was because they were being brought in all-ins. Reason aside, the decision to nerf SCV HP equalized worker HP instead of giving Terrans the obvious advantage against early harass.

It could also be considered unorthodox, but was it a bad change? I don't think so at all.

DemolitionSquid
10-14-2012, 01:56 PM
How is nerfing HP anything like removing a tech requirement? They're two completely different approaches to problem solving. Nerfing and buffing a units stats are fine-tuning. Completely altering a unit's tech tree placement or giving it completely new abilities are far larger and far more reaching things.

Triceron
10-14-2012, 02:13 PM
So explain these far-reaching implications beyond what I've already addressed above. Detection is still a preventative and reactive response, and this change is still a far cry from the SC1 days of Overlords having detection - which didn't completely kill the use of all cloaked/burrowed units mind you.

If there is a legitimate case for these changes being bad, then I'll agree. Right now I don't see anything beyond speculations on how it screws everything up.

mr. peasant
10-14-2012, 02:15 PM
I still don't see why it's a bad thing.

Remember when SCVs used to have 60hp? They were nerfed to 40 as the norm with all other workers. The context was because they were being brought in all-ins. Reason aside, the decision to nerf SCV HP equalized worker HP instead of giving Terrans the obvious advantage against early harass.

It could also be considered unorthodox, but was it a bad change? I don't think so at all.

That's not unorthodox whatsoever. The underlying issue there was indeed that SCVs had too many hit points. So, reducing the hit points was tackling the issue directly. Here, the underlying issue is that the Spider Mine is too effective in too many roles. But rather than weaken it to be in line with the rest of the game, Blizzard decided to tweak with everything around it to match it instead.

Triceron
10-14-2012, 02:21 PM
Again, why is that bad?

DemolitionSquid
10-14-2012, 02:52 PM
Again, why is that bad?

- Because it creates unnecessary extra work possibly re-balancing every unit in the entire game to compensate, extending development time or resulting in a broken game

- Because it replaces old strategies with new ones instead of expanding the range of strategies available
(ex: 4 - 2 + 2 = 4 < 4 + 2 = 6)

- Because early detection (like from Overlords) was purposely scrapped in WoL to make cloaking more viable, and now that position is being reversed in HotS for no obvious logical reason

mr. peasant
10-14-2012, 02:56 PM
Again, why is that bad?

It's bad because it has unintended consequences - complications affecting other things that you didn't intend to affect.

Think of it this way. Say, you choke on a piece of meat. Someone could come rescue you with a Heimlich. Or, someone could decide to operate on you; cutting open your chest and abdomen in a hunt for the offending blob of meat, cut through your oesophagus and fish it out that way. That would work too though one would probably affect a heck of a lot more than just resolve that choking episode. Hence, why no one would ever consider doing it that way.

If you have a specific problem and goal in mind, you fix it in as simple and unobtrusive way you can. Otherwise, you run the risk of creating more problems than you fix.

Jconant
10-15-2012, 12:36 PM
I know some had reservations about changes to the oracle, but I recently watched a video of someone making use of the siphon spell and my conclusion is that its pretty good. If you can get more than one to siphon structures while the opponent doesn't notice, you can make quite a boost in mineral gain. (3 siphons going off seemed to give about the same income as having an additional expansion.)

At this point blizzard needs to gauge spell cost and rates, because at pro levels it may be too easy to ward off, making getting oracles not worth creating. But successful bubbles on mineral lines and secretly getting some siphons going can be give toss a strong economic advantage.

mr. peasant
10-15-2012, 02:46 PM
I know some had reservations about changes to the oracle, but I recently watched a video of someone making use of the siphon spell and my conclusion is that its pretty good. If you can get more than one to siphon structures while the opponent doesn't notice, you can make quite a boost in mineral gain. (3 siphons going off seemed to give about the same income as having an additional expansion.)

At this point blizzard needs to gauge spell cost and rates, because at pro levels it may be too easy to ward off, making getting oracles not worth creating. But successful bubbles on mineral lines and secretly getting some siphons going can be give toss a strong economic advantage.

'While the opponent doesn't notice' being the key phrase there. You could do a lot of damage with a lot of things so long as the opponent doesn't notice you doing it. From dropping a nuke to simply sending a lone worker to attack the enemy's worker line. As long as the opponent doesn't react to what you're doing, you could do anything and it would work.

The important measures are the risk:benefit ratio and its effectiveness after the opponent does notice it. Because you can't solely rely on your opponent's mistakes to carry you through a game.