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DemolitionSquid
10-05-2012, 06:50 PM
TERRAN

Widow Mine

This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload.
Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed.
This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile.
Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage.
The missile auto-acquires cloaked units.
The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts.
It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now.
The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.


PROTOSS

Oracle

The Phase Shield ability has been removed
This unit has a new ability called Void Siphon.
The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and drains 3 minerals every second until canceled.
The range is 7.
The damage/drain effect ticks when you cast the ability and every sequential second following.
Void Siphon costs 50 energy to cast.


Mothership Core

This unit’s Purify ability has changed.
When a player casts Purify on their Nexus, it grants the Nexus the ability to attack, no longer requiring the Core to attach itself.
The Nexus weapon has a range of 13 and a damage of 20.
Purify now lasts for 60 seconds and still costs 100 energy.
The scale of this unit has been lowered to 0.8.
This unit has had its shield/health lowered to 60/130.
This unit now costs 2 supply.

SOURCE: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794980782

---


As we mentioned last week, our main focus this week was redesigning the Widow Mine and replacing the Oracle’s Phase Shield ability. We made quite a few changes to these units that we’ll get to in the paragraphs below, but first we wanted to talk about a few Mothership Core changes. We heard your concerns regarding last week’s changes and have made a few additional Mothership Core tuning passes to help make it a stronger defensive option while using Purify but slightly weaker offensively. Thanks again for all the feedback on the Mothership Core; now let’s dig into the Phase Shield and Widow Mine changes.

The Phase Shield ability is great against Fungal Growth, but because it’s used in such limited circumstances, it’s not all that appealing in most games. As it stands, the Oracle is a harassment caster that only goes for the enemy mineral line, but we thought it would be fun to add a secondary harassment ability that’s not aimed at the mineral line which harasses opponents in a brand new way. The Oracle’s new ability, Void Siphon, allows it to harvest minerals by attacking enemy structures. We’re hoping that this change will open the door for some new harassment options to complement those already in Starcraft II.

For the Widow Mine, we wanted to make a few updates to achieve the following goals:

Make the Widow Mine into an actual cloaked threat.
Make the Widow Mine into a powerful piece that players can revolve strategies around.
Make the Widow Mine into a unit opponents fear, forcing them to react accordingly when Terran players bring them out.

In order to go further in this direction, we’re trying a version of the Widow Mine that doesn’t self-destruct to attack. The updated Widow Mine will be used much in the same way as it is now, but the main difference is that instead of blowing up it shoots a missile, remains cloaked, and rebuilds another missile for later use. Because Widow Mines no longer self-destruct, opponents will have to react accordingly when they’re in play. After the changes, this unit is very different from any unit we’ve had in the past, so we fully anticipate that it will need a lot of testing.

Please remember that the numbers are not final and may require multiple tuning passes. While we want to try to push these new designs as much as we can, the new roles are not set in stone, so we encourage you to spend as much time as you can testing out the new changes and give us your feedback. We hope to work towards creating exciting new units and abilities for every race in Heart of the Swarm!

SOURCE: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794730574

Quirel
10-05-2012, 07:02 PM
-Void Siphon... wouldn't that allow the Protoss player to negate a players income with a few Oracles?

-60/130 and 2 supply for the Mothership Core? That's pretty stripped down.

DemolitionSquid
10-05-2012, 07:09 PM
I have no qualms with the Widow Mine and Mothership Core changes, both seem reasonable to me at the moment.

But the Oracle... goddammit Blizzard.

I love how I suggested a strong mineral Siphon-like ability a few days ago, and then Blizzard adds a pathetic WC3 Orc Raider Pillage clone instead. Stealing 3 min/sec is NOT ACCEPTABLE for 50 fucking energy, especially if your Oracle is shooed away immediately by defense. Make it channel 1 energy per second with no base cost.

Twilice
10-05-2012, 07:29 PM
Oracle vs proxy buildings!

DemolitionSquid
10-05-2012, 07:45 PM
Oracle vs proxy buildings!

"Oooo, I'll send my Oracle over to siphon his proxy Pylon...

... and now its dead because he warped in a single Stalker."

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DboLqIA9lYY/UGHnmfVnNOI/AAAAAAAAGXs/OP1kjzDhSIk/s1600/inconceivable.jpg

Carsickness
10-05-2012, 07:46 PM
so.......the MS-core no longer has purify, right?

seems pretty cool. I still think the core needs something now. especially since purify has been taken away.

DS i think you'd be happy especially considering you suggested something very similar... it seems like a good ability, something you'd want to cast as soon as you see your enemy's army attacking you.

And once again i'm confused; the widow mine doesnt self destruct any more, except now it has the warhound's ability?

TheEconomist
10-05-2012, 07:46 PM
If he can warp in a stalker and kill your Oracle before you can defend against a single stalker, you DESERVE to lose.

DemolitionSquid
10-05-2012, 08:00 PM
so.......the MS-core no longer has purify, right?

seems pretty cool. I still think the core needs something now. especially since purify has been taken away.

DS i think you'd be happy especially considering you suggested something very similar... it seems like a good ability, something you'd want to cast as soon as you see your enemy's army attacking you.

And once again i'm confused; the widow mine doesnt self destruct any more, except now it has the warhound's ability?

MsC still has Purify. It casts it on the Nexus to turn the Nexus into a giant Photon Cannon, instead of the MsC becoming the cannon.

I suggested an ability similar to Void Siphon. My idea, however, was not a fucking deaf-mute quadriplegic. 3 Minerals is NOT enough. Not even close.

And the Widow Mine is now an Uber-Lurker with a 40 second attack cooldown.


If he can warp in a stalker and kill your Oracle before you can defend against a single stalker, you DESERVE to lose.

What I was saying is, you're spending 50 energy to siphon like 20 minerals before the enemy attacks you, forcing you to leave or die. Either way, there is NO situation where this ability is viable at 3 minerals/sec.

Carsickness
10-05-2012, 08:07 PM
there is NO situation where this ability is viable at 3 minerals/sec.

I agree...3 mins a sec? who cares?

Kimera757
10-05-2012, 08:15 PM
I think 3 minerals per second isn't too low, it's the damage that seems pathetic. (The mineral gain would be icing on the cake.) Then again, if this gained minerals at half the rate of the MULE, it would be a cooler ability, and players would freak out whenever they saw this being done to them.

I'm confused by the changes to the widow mine. Does the widow mine still blow up? It seems not...

DemolitionSquid
10-05-2012, 08:26 PM
I think 3 minerals per second isn't too low, it's the damage that seems pathetic. (The mineral gain would be icing on the cake.) Then again, if this gained minerals at half the rate of the MULE, it would be a cooler ability, and players would freak out whenever they saw this being done to them.

I'm confused by the changes to the widow mine. Does the widow mine still blow up? It seems not...

3 min/sec is about the rate of a Mule, who coincidentally also cost 50 energy. They gave the Oracle the ability to Mule, without considering that Muleing in your own base are safe enough to be cost effective, wheras Muleing in the enemy base is a complete fucking waste of 50 energy.

As for its actual damage to the structure its attacking... if you're a Protoss and your goal is to attack an enemy building or mineral line with a flying unit, then why aren't you building a goddamn Void Ray? It costs only 100 minerals more, does several times the damage, and has twice the health of the Oracle.

Oh, and, new fact: Void Siphon doesn't steal minerals from your enemy. You just mine his building's HP like they were a mineral patch.

Also: no, the Widow mine no longer blows up. It shoots pocket nukes.

Visions of Khas
10-05-2012, 08:42 PM
On the Widow Mine, I was under the impression that the new passive ability would allow it to become a stationary, high-powered and cloaked photon cannon at the expense of waiting 40 seconds for it to convert from "Mine" mode. Am I getting this right?

DemolitionSquid
10-05-2012, 08:50 PM
On the Widow Mine, I was under the impression that the new passive ability would allow it to become a stationary, high-powered and cloaked photon cannon at the expense of waiting 40 seconds for it to convert from "Mine" mode. Am I getting this right?

Not quite. Here's the jist.

1. Build Widow Mine. 75/25 cost, 40 second build time. Has inactive autocast ability "Unstable Payload."
2. Move Widow Mine into position. Burrow Widow Mine, takes 2 seconds.
3. Burrowed Widow mine autocast ability "Unstable Payload" becomes functional. "Unstable Payload" autocast cannot currently be toggled off.
4. Enemy unit runs into range 5 of Widow Mine. Widow Mine autocasts "Unstable Payload." Widow Mine fires a missile attack, dealing 160 direct damage and 40 splash to enemy unit(s).
5. Cooldown on "Unstable Payload" activates for 40 seconds as Window mine "reloads" a new "Unstable Payload" missile.
6. Unburrow Widow Mine. "Unstable Payload" becomes inactive again.

Triceron
10-05-2012, 10:56 PM
So it's a burrowed turret? I don't really see why Terran need such a unit. It sounds like a Zerg mechanic given to Terrans tbh.

mr. peasant
10-06-2012, 02:45 AM
Not quite. Here's the jist.

1. Build Widow Mine. 75/25 cost, 40 second build time. Has inactive autocast ability "Unstable Payload."
2. Move Widow Mine into position. Burrow Widow Mine, takes 2 seconds.
3. Burrowed Widow mine autocast ability "Unstable Payload" becomes functional. "Unstable Payload" autocast cannot currently be toggled off.
4. Enemy unit runs into range 5 of Widow Mine. Widow Mine autocasts "Unstable Payload." Widow Mine fires a missile attack, dealing 160 direct damage and 40 splash to enemy unit(s).
5. Cooldown on "Unstable Payload" activates for 40 seconds as Window mine "reloads" a new "Unstable Payload" missile.
6. Unburrow Widow Mine. "Unstable Payload" becomes inactive again.

What I wonder is whether the Widow Mine can immediately unburrow and re-burrow. If so, its long cooldown could be circumvented.

As is, my main concern is its damage output. I think it's definitely a little too high now that it doesn't self-destruct. It potentially might function like a cloaked Siege Tank that attacks both, land and air units, without even the issue of terrain guiding players on where to expect them. Also, imagine dropping a few Mines in a worker line. It would effectively shut down that expansion for some time as it would take awhile to clear them.



So it's a burrowed turret? I don't really see why Terran need such a unit. It sounds like a Zerg mechanic given to Terrans tbh.

It's because Blizzard is of the opinion that the Terrans need a new area denial unit. Plus, they need a new unit for the expansion.

Kknewkles
10-06-2012, 02:56 AM
Wow. First version of Widow Mine was ye olde Spider Mine on freaking steriods. It could leap buildings and attach itself to aerial units, AND be produced at Factories. And now this thing has it's own attack? Maybe it should be renamed to something like Spider Silo? Because having "Mine" in a name for contraption that launches ROCKETS is silly.

"Hey, look! Those Terrans are crazy, man! Everything is weaponized now! Babies have guns, dogs have guns, even mines shoot rockets!"

It will be a good defence measure vs. Mutas, too...

Todie
10-06-2012, 05:28 AM
I think 3 minerals per second isn't too low, it's the damage that seems pathetic. (The mineral gain would be icing on the cake.) Then again, if this gained minerals at half the rate of the MULE, it would be a cooler ability, and players would freak out whenever they saw this being done to them.


I agreee with this sentiment, although i sense, hihger damage might quickly make this more powerfull han intended. 3 dmg seems silly-low at first glance however.

the key thing to keep in mind here is that the abiliy has range 7. thats enough to allow siphoning from buildings at a mienral-lines backside and forcing defenders who are at a range of five or six to really hug a cliff edge and limit their surface area. a position that may in turn be punished by supporting units like VR/phoenix or even stalker / sentry on the ground below.

.. if the ability was something like 2x as effective as a mule and didnt have a penalty for being canseled, i think it would be pretty broken. espeically in endgame out-of-minerals stalemates (you cant defend all your builds!? lawl i win)

Twilice
10-06-2012, 05:55 AM
Something relevant that I have missed, how much does an oracle cost?

mr. peasant
10-06-2012, 08:34 AM
Just a little more thought regarding the Oracle:

In its current form, the only time I can see it being used is during the late stages of a 3+ player match where one of the players has already left and minerals are running low. That being said, in such circumstances I'd imagine that the other races would complain that Protoss players are able to 'make resources' during such a resource-starved scenario and would have a huge advantage over the other two. Lastly, there's only really one way/objective to use it - which is to obtain minerals - and so it doesn't really give much room for strategy and creativity.

All in all, I'm not convinced by it.


Now, looking at what Blizzard said:


The Phase Shield ability is great against Fungal Growth, but because it’s used in such limited circumstances, it’s not all that appealing in most games. As it stands, the Oracle is a harassment caster that only goes for the enemy mineral line, but we thought it would be fun to add a secondary harassment ability that’s not aimed at the mineral line which harasses opponents in a brand new way. The Oracle’s new ability, Void Siphon, allows it to harvest minerals by attacking enemy structures. We’re hoping that this change will open the door for some new harassment options to complement those already in Starcraft II.

With all this talk about 'voids', I can't help but think: why not bring back the old Null Void?

Null Void:
Area of effect ability that prevents units and buildings caught within it from using energy-based abilities. Works against Nexuses and Orbital Commands, as well as Mothership Cores and Queens. Stepping out of its area of effect allows the unit to use energy again.


And while I'm spitballing ideas, here's another offbeat one:

Cripple:
A non-channeling ability that permanently reduces the hit points and shields of buildings down to 80%. Crippled buildings constantly lose 5 hit points/second if health exceeds 80%. If SCVs attempt to repair the building, it will continue to do so indefinitely but be unable to exceed 80% (causing the careless Terran player to waste his/her resources).


This way, Oracles can't directly kill enemy units or buildings but are instead able to sabotage the latter. For harassment, it allows later drops/harasses to take the established expansion down much quicker. The debate for the player (especially in the early game when the expansion isn't as well defended) is whether they want to use Entomb and getting ahead immediately or to use Cripple and play the long game, reaping the benefits later down the line. It also has some (though less) use in the main army by scouting ahead and softening defensive structures.

DemolitionSquid
10-06-2012, 10:49 AM
What I wonder is whether the Widow Mine can immediately unburrow and re-burrow. If so, its long cooldown could be circumvented.

As is, my main concern is its damage output. I think it's definitely a little too high now that it doesn't self-destruct. It potentially might function like a cloaked Siege Tank that attacks both, land and air units, without even the issue of terrain guiding players on where to expect them. Also, imagine dropping a few Mines in a worker line. It would effectively shut down that expansion for some time as it would take awhile to clear them.

40 second cooldown on Unstable Payload does not reset by the Widow Mine burrowing or unburrowing.


Wow. First version of Widow Mine was ye olde Spider Mine on freaking steriods. It could leap buildings and attach itself to aerial units, AND be produced at Factories. And now this thing has it's own attack? Maybe it should be renamed to something like Spider Silo? Because having "Mine" in a name for contraption that launches ROCKETS is silly.

"Hey, look! Those Terrans are crazy, man! Everything is weaponized now! Babies have guns, dogs have guns, even mines shoot rockets!"

It will be a good defence measure vs. Mutas, too...

I suggest renaming it to "Rocket Mine," and having its portrait look like Elton John.

@Mr. Peasant
Many people suggested Phase Shield become more like Null Void before it was replaced.

Alar
10-06-2012, 01:03 PM
The new Widow Mine seems... well, it sounds really strong. Imagine just setting up waves of these guys outside your defensive perimeter close to your base. Enemies are less likely to bring detectors to smash through your defenses in the first place, so this just means Terrans are going to be able to turtle more effectively.

I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. Wonder if it'll stick.

DemolitionSquid
10-06-2012, 02:13 PM
So far the reactions to Widow Mine I've seen range from "awesome" to "OP." The few major issues seem to be that a) its too good vs zerg in early game, as it is a cloaked unit available even earlier than the Banshee, and b) that its targeting of cloaked units without detection makes DT rushes no longer viable. I think that putting Armory a build requirement, and removing its ability to target cloaked units, can balance this new Rocket Mine and make it a solid expansion unit.

Kknewkles
10-06-2012, 03:26 PM
BW had Terrans set their little "empire" borders with Siege Tanks, Turrets and Spider Mines.
These little Widowmakers will be sufficient. Maybe with Tanks, just for usual Terran laughs. Just imagining lines of these critters, while it's cool and all, makes me wonder what will be able to surpass such defence? Immortals? Now they're oughta tank Sieges AND these missiles? Doubt they'll be able to get their job done. Even with adequate Zealot numbers shortly behind them.

I bet they'll get nerfed. Either numbers or mechanic completely scrapped.

P.S.: Oracle syphon - it's bullshit. IMHO, ofc.

RamiZ
10-06-2012, 04:30 PM
I like the way the HOTS is going, and also, I think Oracle's Void Siphon ability should be a lot stronger, something like 15 minerals/5 damage per second for 20 seconds, so it actually matters when you use it. Right now, it is just "Oh, he found a hole in my defense? I will just send one Marines to shoot it down...", you don't really care if one unit that isn't massable has the dps of 3 against buildings, it can't kill anything.

Triceron
10-06-2012, 07:11 PM
3min/s is comparable to a mules income. 15min/s would be overkill.

DemolitionSquid
10-06-2012, 07:28 PM
3min/s is comparable to a mules income. 15min/s would be overkill.

15min/sec is not overkill for a tier 2.5 caster unit that costs 150/150. At the current Void Siphon rate of 3min/sec interrupt-able for a 50 energy, the ability will never be cost effective at higher levels of play.

Alar
10-06-2012, 10:54 PM
Urgh. I'd love to be able to play now and see all the sorts of crazy things you can do with these recent changes. -Beta woes-

mr. peasant
10-07-2012, 03:11 AM
15min/sec is not overkill for a tier 2.5 caster unit that costs 150/150. At the current Void Siphon rate of 3min/sec interrupt-able for a 50 energy, the ability will never be cost effective at higher levels of play.

Even if it can, it would be too risky to do; especially given the other safer, more likely to payoff alternatives at the player's disposal.

The issue, I feel, isn't whether the strategy can work but whether it can work often enough and be enticing enough for players to use it over other strategies.

Raif
10-07-2012, 09:42 AM
I'm pretty sure they will change Siphon in the next update it is completely useless, and I can't see why protoss would want the Orecal at all, but I guess that's what we have a beta for.
I tried it out vs the very easy AI, and a single hydralisk had me turning around, and when I tried with the M-core as support I almost lost them both (had to flee again vs a single hydralisk :( )

The caster range of the purify spell, seems to be about 10, (2x of the attack range of the M-core)

Carsickness
10-07-2012, 10:20 AM
I'm pretty sure they will change Siphon in the next update it is completely useless, and I can't see why protoss would want the Orecal at all, but I guess that's what we have a beta for.
I tried it out vs the very easy AI, and a single hydralisk had me turning around, and when I tried with the M-core as support I almost lost them both (had to flee again vs a single hydralisk :( )

The caster range of the purify spell, seems to be about 10, (2x of the attack range of the M-core)

I can see it being used against a Terran sending in a factory/barracks scout, but that's about it :p

Does it work on creep tumors?

Kimera757
10-07-2012, 11:04 AM
I wonder if a protoss player can Void Siphon their own buildings if they no longer need them (for instance, their first nexus once they've expanded repeatedly).

Quirel
10-07-2012, 11:10 AM
I wonder if a protoss player can Void Siphon their own buildings if they no longer need them (for instance, their first nexus once they've expanded repeatedly).
Wait. Can void siphon harvest shields, or does it have to be doing health damage?

Noctis
10-07-2012, 11:14 AM
widow mine craziness, it needs a nerf. question is limit it or actually nerf it?


http://youtu.be/pqtfaXI-71A?hd=1 QXC vs goswser

Raif
10-07-2012, 11:27 AM
Does it work on creep tumors?

Yes you can, but you then need an observer or use the scan ability.


I wonder if a protoss player can Void Siphon their own buildings if they no longer need them (for instance, their first nexus once they've expanded repeatedly).
You can't target your own buildings, so that's a no


Wait. Can void siphon harvest shields, or does it have to be doing health damage?
They can harvest shields, so you can use them i PvP

With 21 orecals, I killed a lair defended by a queen and a hydra, it took about 50 in-game sec and I lost 5 of them :p

RamiZ
10-07-2012, 04:26 PM
widow mine craziness, it needs a nerf. question is limit it or actually nerf it?


http://youtu.be/pqtfaXI-71A?hd=1 QXC vs goswser

That is a bad example, goswser played awful and certainly didn't know how to deal with them.

Watch this game, show you the way how to deal with Widow Mines, and the game is really really interesting(in my opinion).

9oEzh4y7GWw

Triceron
10-07-2012, 05:00 PM
Zerg still lost that game, and was very badly behind despite being able to 'handle' the widow mines. The Terran player got a HUGE lead because of widow mine defense.

I really think they're gonna remove the anti-air on it. You can't even harass with Mutas if you have a couple widow mines defending mineral lines.

DemolitionSquid
10-07-2012, 05:23 PM
Zerg still lost that game, and was very badly behind despite being able to 'handle' the widow mines. The Terran player got a HUGE lead because of widow mine defense.

I really think they're gonna remove the anti-air on it. You can't even harass with Mutas if you have a couple widow mines defending mineral lines.

The anti-air is not the problem. The Widow is meant as a space control and defensive unit, so that Mech play doesn't suffer from it's immobility as much. Bring an Overseer with your Mutalisks if you're worried about Widows during harassment. Both require Lair tech anyway.

That game was lost because it took Rise so long to get the Lair tech he needed for detection. Rise could have built some Spore Crawlers, but that requires an Evolution Chamber, and I think he didn't feel he could justify the cost of the Chamber and Spores so early when facing Hellions along with the Widows. As I stated before, clearly the problem is the Widow's tech level. Mainly, it's way too low for a cloaked unit. It needs to be brought in line with the rush timings of Banshee, DT, and Burrow-Move Roach/Infestor. Force an Armory requirement and getting detection to counter Widows will be much more viable.

Also, the Widow's ability to kill cloaked units without detection needs to be removed. There's no way to exploit Terran's CC energy through DT or Banshee rushes when they don't need to scan to kill those two units anymore, thanks to the Widow.

Triceron
10-07-2012, 06:09 PM
In a lot of those TvZ games, widowmines are commonly the cause of deaths for Overseers. With a misstep of overseer micro, they could easily be collateral damage of widow mine splash with your mutas.

I agree if Widow mine was pushed back a bit for its tech level it could be better, since Terrans wouldn't have such a huge early advantage for area control, but I still think they kill detectors way too easily. QXC's other match had him running widow mines right under overseers, burrowing and taking out entire armies while removing detection, allowing the rest to survive.

DemolitionSquid
10-07-2012, 06:32 PM
In a lot of those TvZ games, widowmines are commonly the cause of deaths for Overseers. With a misstep of overseer micro, they could easily be collateral damage of widow mine splash with your mutas.

I agree if Widow mine was pushed back a bit for its tech level it could be better, since Terrans wouldn't have such a huge early advantage for area control, but I still think they kill detectors way too easily. QXC's other match had him running widow mines right under overseers, burrowing and taking out entire armies while removing detection, allowing the rest to survive.

Running a Widow under an Overseer is the same as running Marines under an Overseer, or Stalkers, or Hydralisks. If the Overseer is alone, then yeah, its dead. If the Overseer is with other units that can attack, then the Widow should die quickly before it can even burrow to attack.

I'm not advocating rushing in thoughtlessly with the Overseer, 1A-ing your Overseer/Muta ball. If the player is too stupid to separate the Overseer from their Mutalisks instead of letting it slowly scout for Widows to pick off, then the Overseer, and the player, deserves to die. At most I'd suggest a 1 range increase on Overseer vision radius, or a slight nerf to Widow health, if you're too scared of accidentally running into Widows.

Triceron
10-07-2012, 08:24 PM
If the Overseer is with other units that can attack, then the Widow should die quickly before it can even burrow to attack.

QXC's games show that he's running widow mines right into the enemy base and able to devastate a huge chunk of the opponent's army whether they have detection or not. The burst damage and being a cloaked unit makes it more effective than marines, since you're able to take out the enemy before they can retaliate. The Mines might be a bit squishy, but Zerg can't just sit around attacking mines while they burrow, they have to move units back and creep forward slowly.

There are a lot of things I like about this new unit and it's very good at what it does. I don't think it should be used as an offensive unit in any case, and maybe this could be rectified with a delay after it burrows. You shouldn't be able to run in 15 of these things into an enemy base, burrow, and smash everything around it with a few shots.

DemolitionSquid
10-07-2012, 08:46 PM
QXC's games show that he's running widow mines right into the enemy base and able to devastate a huge chunk of the opponent's army whether they have detection or not. The burst damage and being a cloaked unit makes it more effective than marines, since you're able to take out the enemy before they can retaliate. The Mines might be a bit squishy, but Zerg can't just sit around attacking mines while they burrow, they have to move units back and creep forward slowly.

There are a lot of things I like about this new unit and it's very good at what it does. I don't think it should be used as an offensive unit in any case, and maybe this could be rectified with a delay after it burrows. You shouldn't be able to run in 15 of these things into an enemy base, burrow, and smash everything around it with a few shots.

It sounds like its an issue with killing it fast enough. Making it take longer to burrow or reducing its HP a bit should be enough to curb this issue.

Balanced Widow Mine
- Armory requirement
- can't attack cloaked without detection
- increased burrow time or lower HP

Can we all agree on this?

Kimera757
10-07-2012, 09:28 PM
I could agree with that, but perhaps the splash damage could be "nerfed" or at least changed. It's low enough it's probably not a huge deal when used against mutalisks (I thought they were supposed to kill those) but you could blow up a lot of non-terran workers with them.

Edit: Actually I'm not sold on widow mines being "pseudodetectors" as being a bad thing. It's a bit like spider mines, which IIRC could blow up dark templar (but couldn't spot). I'm more worried about their burrowing.

I think an armory requirement is key (or at least some requirement to postpone their use until after detection is available to zerg and protoss). Without that, you could (theoretically anyway) "colonize" an expansion with widow mines, continually blowing up enemy workers until they can get some detection there.

Carsickness
10-07-2012, 09:34 PM
Balanced Widow Mine
- Armory requirement
- can't attack cloaked without detection
-



Can we all agree on this?


a delay after it burrows.

I can agree on this.
It's the rushing in and killing the entire army thing that I find game breaking.

Alar
10-08-2012, 07:43 AM
I think maybe an upgrade to buff their damage (after nerfing it, make it an expensive upgrade that requires the Armory before its available) might be a good way to go with the Widow Mines. That and maybe removing the auto-fire on cloaked units would make them a better idea. The HP nerf idea also isn't bad.

mr. peasant
10-08-2012, 10:02 AM
It sounds like its an issue with killing it fast enough. Making it take longer to burrow or reducing its HP a bit should be enough to curb this issue.

Balanced Widow Mine
- Armory requirement
- can't attack cloaked without detection
- increased burrow time or lower HP

Can we all agree on this?

I'd say this with a less intelligent AI so that the same unit can trigger multiple Mines if they are placed too close to one another.

RamiZ
10-08-2012, 12:36 PM
It sounds like its an issue with killing it fast enough. Making it take longer to burrow or reducing its HP a bit should be enough to curb this issue.

Balanced Widow Mine
- Armory requirement
- can't attack cloaked without detection
- increased burrow time or lower HP

Can we all agree on this?

Yeah, pretty much. All games I've seen with new Widow Mines were great and really exciting to watch(even where they seemed op), but thing is, they are supposed to be good area control and defensive units, but they are even better used offensively right now, that should be nerfed.

Todie
10-09-2012, 04:22 AM
The combination of being able to hit cloaked and hit air may be a bit much for the mine in its current state. its so versatile, andterrans are stil retaining all their previous AA options. What if it had two spepparate states, one to hit air and one to keep hitting anything on ground, taking 3-5 sec to switch between them. would that help? is it overly complicated?


I think maybe an upgrade to buff their damage (after nerfing it, make it an expensive upgrade that requires the Armory before its available) might be a good way to go with the Widow Mines. That and maybe removing the auto-fire on cloaked units would make them a better idea. The HP nerf idea also isn't bad.

I do like this approach to give the mines early agressive potential a nudge. i think it can be a bit more sublte though; give it a delay of 4-5 second before it can fire afer burrowing and add a techlab upgrade that reduces that to like two perhaps that could be joint with a HP upgrade of 20 or so (leaving room to nerf the mines starting HP)

flak4321
10-09-2012, 03:02 PM
The combination of being able to hit cloaked and hit air may be a bit much for the mine in its current state. its so versatile, andterrans are stil retaining all their previous AA options. What if it had two spepparate states, one to hit air and one to keep hitting anything on ground, taking 3-5 sec to switch between them. would that help? is it overly complicated?



I do like this approach to give the mines early agressive potential a nudge. i think it can be a bit more sublte though; give it a delay of 4-5 second before it can fire afer burrowing and add a techlab upgrade that reduces that to like two perhaps that could be joint with a HP upgrade of 20 or so (leaving room to nerf the mines starting HP)

The offensive potential of the mines right now is a bit much, but I like this idea set as well. The key to nerfing it before the upgrade is to not nerf it so much that the mines become too weak in early defensive uses.

Speaking of which, HD gives us a snippet from a lower level game of the power of the mine raid. Talk about probe raping!

Special thanks to Carsickness who PM'd me the details on posting these so they were watchable here!!

C_5lP7B-nGc&feature