PDA

View Full Version : New Terran = Old Terran(+ battlehellion)



sandwich_bird
10-04-2012, 11:52 AM
So I've been playing the beta a bit and one thing (that I was fearing) seems obvious now: HotS brings nothing new to Terran. Sure, going mech against zerg is a lot more viable thanks to the battlehellion but that's it. The mines are mostly useless because the only thing they really stop are zerglings run by and marine drops which was not really a problem to begin with. I've tried playing mech vs protoss the same way that I would in BW but mines aren't enough. The reason is that too many counters to the traditional pvmech where introduced in WoL(sentry shield, charge, blink, immortal). Furthermore, even if you do win an engagement, the warp in mechanic make it so that protoss will easily and rapidly be able to clean whatever you have left. Another issue is that setting up a mine field is A LOT more time consuming than it was in BW. This means than more often than not, a good player will engage me before I have the time to finish up a solid defense. That, of course, is assuming that they do try to engage. Indeed, with units having way more mobility than before(and maps being really poorly made), there's no point in engaging.

So lets resume PvMech:
-They engage me before I set up my defense = dead
-They engage me when my defense is set up = dead
-They don't engage me = dead

Possible solutions:
-Make another unit drop the mines like the vulture did(possibly the hellion or maybe the reaper? Or make a new units for it) but still allow the mines to relocate. This will allow faster mine deployment.
OR/AND
-Change the way the mines deploy themselves to a simple hold shift + click to quickly decide the position where the mines should burrow.

-Make mech more durable so that if Terran wins the encounter he gets a real advantage. How to make that? I don't know be creative: let scv attach themselves to mech unit for auto-repair(lol?), give a mech repair ability to the raven(kinda like the science vessel in WoL campaign), bring back a light version of mechanical rebirth but to a wider range of units.

Of course, the problem with this is that it makes TvZ a lot more painful for Zerg. This is why the haywire missile was actually a smart idea. It makes mech more potent vs Protoss while not really affecting TvZ. Unfortunately I didn't have the chance to try the warhound so I don't know how broken it was.

Anyways, my opinion is not a fact but I think it does reflect the overall sentiment of the community. I'm no pro either but I'm not bad(diamond league in 1v1 in WoL).

Alar
10-04-2012, 12:47 PM
Don't worry, you should just make some of those mechs with that Haywire Missle thingy!

That'll help you for sure! :D Those are still viable, right? Right?

flak4321
10-05-2012, 08:53 AM
Another thing being lamented about regarding the mine is the supply cost. Terran mech loses some bulk to set up the mine field. There have been some very creative uses of the mines though. I've seen some youtube videos (mainly Husky, but some HD and Day 9), where stregically placed mines can be used like baneling mines, especially after the latest patch gave the players some ability to control when the mines detonate.

The biggest reason mech isn't good vs. Toss is beacause even in WoL a mech army can be very lacking in anti-air. The battle hellion now gives mech a better chance vs. exceptionally zealot heavy deathballs, but not much else. Toss also has air units both in WoL and in HotS that counter mech play well. (Void Rays, Carriers and now the Tempest).

One thing I see quite a few of even the pro Terrans doing is getting to 3,4,5 plus bases but not having enough production facilities to re-field their army quickly enough. I myself get stuck on a 4 rax (2 reactor, 2 tech), 2 factory (both tech), and 2 starport build that I'm trying to get out of. I often lose games with substantial money left because I couldn't spend my income. One of the best ways to buy time to re-bulk your mech quickly is to switch briefly into biomech and get some rauders and/or ghosts.

Carsickness
10-05-2012, 10:52 AM
Possible solutions:
-Make another unit drop the mines like the vulture did(possibly the hellion or maybe the reaper? Or make a new units for it) but still allow the mines to relocate. This will allow faster mine deployment.
OR/AND
-Change the way the mines deploy themselves to a simple hold shift + click to quickly decide the position where the mines should burrow.

-Make mech more durable so that if Terran wins the encounter he gets a real advantage. How to make that? I don't know be creative: let scv attach themselves to mech unit for auto-repair(lol?), give a mech repair ability to the raven(kinda like the science vessel in WoL campaign), bring back a light version of mechanical rebirth but to a wider range of units.



I like the idea of another unit dropping mines. Reaper seems like a good choice, except that mines could just be placed earlier on expo positions forcing robo/lair tech to expand making a player fall behind.

And I really think that Terran needs a way to repair their mech besides sacrificing their scvs. So how about bringing back the Nomad.

http://www.techticles.com/wp-content/uploads/starcraft2nomad.JPG

Remember this guy? He was meant to be a mech version of a medivac (withough the ability to drop). Why not bring him back and allow him to drop mines as well?

DemolitionSquid
10-05-2012, 11:43 AM
I like the idea of another unit dropping mines. Reaper seems like a good choice, except that mines could just be placed earlier on expo positions forcing robo/lair tech to expand making a player fall behind.

And I really think that Terran needs a way to repair their mech besides sacrificing their scvs. So how about bringing back the Nomad.

http://www.techticles.com/wp-content/uploads/starcraft2nomad.JPG

Remember this guy? He was meant to be a mech version of a medivac (withough the ability to drop). Why not bring him back and allow him to drop mines as well?

Nomad was acctually the precursor to the Raven, not the Medevac.

Pr0nogo
10-05-2012, 12:16 PM
I don't think that was his contention, DS. He was merely saying that it was supposed to have the ability to heal mechanical units like the Medivac heals organic ones.

Triceron
10-05-2012, 01:07 PM
I don't see the point. You already have SCVs, you can drop mules from anywhere, and Mech generally isn't played in the same way as a mobile bio-army that would need healing to keep sustained. On top of this, the Battle Hellion is now bio.

Also, I wouldn't want to see the viking v viking battles last even longer than they already do.

DemolitionSquid
10-05-2012, 01:17 PM
I don't think that was his contention, DS. He was merely saying that it was supposed to have the ability to heal mechanical units like the Medivac heals organic ones.

I just like accuracy, despite what some may think.

Carsickness
10-05-2012, 04:13 PM
I don't think that was his contention, DS. He was merely saying that it was supposed to have the ability to heal mechanical units like the Medivac heals organic ones.
Yes, thank you


I don't see the point. You already have SCVs, you can drop mules from anywhere, and Mech generally isn't played in the same way as a mobile bio-army that would need healing to keep sustained. On top of this, the Battle Hellion is now bio.

Also, I wouldn't want to see the viking v viking battles last even longer than they already do.

The problem with Mech is mobility. So having a dedicated repair unit would allow Terran to be more mobile on mass factory tech. Plus allowing mines gives it something to to between battles.

The warhound (hopefully a dumbed down version) will return, giving a greater need for a mech based healer.

I play toss, but even I feel sorry for the extremely linear options for Terran. And in turn i'm forced down a linear tech vs. Terran. Terran NEEDS a new options, and mech currently needs a pick-me-up.

Triceron
10-05-2012, 09:00 PM
What mech unit necessitates this aeriel repair unit?

Siege tanks use leapfrog tactics, and aren't meant to take damage. When they do, they die fast, as they're supposed to. Hellions are much too quick and mobile to make use of healing unless it's out of combat. Thors are the main unit you would want to repair with their high HP, but then giving such a high HP unit medivac support would be too strong. The medivac is balanced out by the fact that most of the units it heals are fairly squishy and killable.

Carsickness
10-05-2012, 09:51 PM
What mech unit necessitates this aeriel repair unit?



what mech unit doesn't?

Triceron
10-05-2012, 10:59 PM
The ones that you don't 1A with.

Carsickness
10-06-2012, 08:50 AM
K. All I'm saying is mech is very immobile, and Terran needs a way keep his mech army pushing forward.
Bringing 20+ SCVs works fine, but the longer you have them repairing, the more economic damage you're doing to your self.
Also, the original nomad's healing ability wasn't constant, and repaired something like 200 hp a pop, similar to the Queens heal ( it also had defence matrix originally).
A mechanic like that, IMO, would prevent an A-move army.

Also, having it (or another unit) drop mines means that it can cut off flanking armies, or prevent run arounds.
Siege up, nomad flies off and drops mines, forces engagement.
Then once the battle starts you can micro your nomad to spike heal.

DemolitionSquid
10-06-2012, 10:42 AM
Bringing 20+ SCVs works fine, but the longer you have them repairing, the more economic damage you're doing to your self.

True, but Terran also have MULES. Trading off some SCV's to heal and replacing their lost income rate through MULES is an interesting strategic choice I support keeping.

Carsickness
10-06-2012, 11:48 AM
True, but Terran also have MULES. Trading off some SCV's to heal and replacing their lost income rate through MULES is an interesting strategic choice I support keeping.

It's clunky and un-imaginative to just bring SCVs. Plus look how that's worked out for a Meching Terran so far...

DemolitionSquid
10-06-2012, 12:17 PM
It's clunky and un-imaginative to just bring SCVs. Plus look how that's worked out for a Meching Terran so far...

Its racially distinctive to bring SCV's and make up for it with Mules. Its also been proven viable.

The shortfallings of Terran mech play has NOTHING to do with needing to bring SCV's to repair, so I honestly don't even know why we're discussing this. The problems with mech are a) that it is highly immobile, b) that its not strong enough against Protoss deathballs, and c) that the Thor is completely fucking useless because Blizzard couldn't decide what they wanted, nigh, needed it to accomplish. Even though the answer to that question is obvious to everyone.

Blizzard is trying to rectify these issues with the Hellbat and Widow Mine. The Hellbat adds increased HP to the mech ball, and a way to handle Zealots who can catch-up to and surround a retreating mech army. Other than Hellions, mech is expensive and costs a lot of supply, with high build times. Losing mech units severely cripples a Terran player, keeping as many alive as possible after a failed engagement is a big deal. As for the Widow Mine, using them to control space and defend so your main, more powerful units like Seige Tanks can acctually push the enemy without retaliation is a decent way to approach the immobility problem. The only remaining problem is the sheer power of the Protoss deathball thanks to Colossi and Immortals. If the Thor was made slightly more powerful in countering these units, like with Haywire, I feel it would solve a lot of things.

MulletBen
10-06-2012, 03:00 PM
THE ENTIRE POINT OF MECH IS THAT IT IS IMMOBILE.

If your goal is better mech play, please offer a solution where the intent isn't to turn mech into fat bio.

Also the warhound is never coming back.

DemolitionSquid
10-06-2012, 03:43 PM
THE ENTIRE POINT OF MECH IS THAT IT IS IMMOBILE.

If your goal is better mech play, please offer a solution where the intent isn't to turn mech into fat bio.

Also the warhound is never coming back.

The point of mech is not to be immobile. The point is to push the enemy back slowly, to gain and hold ground as you advance in stages with your army. The side-effect of mech play is immobility, due to the design of immobile Siege Tanks as the core mech unit for holding ground. Mech is a slow, methodical push. This contrasts the more responsive and mobile bio playstyle, which focuses more on crippling the enemy through harassment and bursts of power while quickly exploiting positional openings. Mech is a more stable and straightforward "break through the front-lines" playstyle. This has lead to more openings than intended for more mobile armies to exploit against Mech play. The Widow Mine can help close a few of those holes and bring methodical mech pushes up to the power of other playstyles.

topsecret221
10-06-2012, 04:04 PM
The POINT of mech is not to be immobile, but to pack an enormous punch. The drawback to mech is immobility (or that's how it was back in the Brood War days, when mech was really good).

Triceron
10-06-2012, 06:59 PM
An aerial mech healing unit still doesn't change how mech is played. Auto-Healing benefits mobile armies the most; giving Mech this type of unit does nothing to promote its mobility. The only point of it would be filling a 'nice to have' niche that does away with SCV/Mule repair. It's kind of like giving them another spotter unit when they already have Comsat. It's a redundancy, that's it.

Carsickness
10-06-2012, 08:38 PM
Fair enough. Terran mech is just soooo useless right now. I always grin when I see my opponent going mech, because I know it'll be an easy win. Kind of like when Zerg spots a stargate tech on a Protoss.
As an opponent I would really hate to see Terran having the ability to quickly heal their mech units, but I guess it's something a Terran player wouldn't want judging by your reactions. Having your SCVs melt to colossi and/or storms in the first few seconds seems much better...

How about an ability to protect mech then? Maybe an AOE based ability (EMP sized) that pushes back light units, including your own. Zealots/zerglings/banelings (are banelings light?) come rushing in, you use this ability once units have reached your tank line, giving extra firing time to your tanks.

Of course, you could use it for other things like pushing units into a siege line, or pushing a DT away from your SCVs.

MulletBen
10-07-2012, 02:20 PM
So, give Terran a forcefield that only affects light units?

RamiZ
10-07-2012, 04:38 PM
Carsickness, Mech isn't useless. It is maybe useless vs. Protoss, but it is used in TvT and TvZ to a great extent, so used in 2/3 match ups, won't call that useless. I am talking about WoL btw.

They will do something about it in HOTS, they said that they are looking at the ways to address mech and that Immortals counters both Tanks and Thors way too good, so they maybe change the Immortals, but there is also a possibility to change the Thor 250mm strike cannons.
All this will happen after they are finished with the design of the new units, and all this is said by Dustin on Battle net Forums.

Btw, Banelings aren't light, they are just biological, not light nor armored.

Carsickness
10-07-2012, 08:24 PM
Carsickness, Mech isn't useless. It is maybe useless vs. Protoss, but it is used in TvT and TvZ to a great extent, so used in 2/3 match ups, won't call that useless. I am talking about WoL btw.



Ya sorry, I play only toss so to me it broken. I should of specified, my bad.

I like your idea to change the immortal to help mech out though. It really is the hard counter to everything mech....maybe too hard.



So, give Terran a forcefield that only affects light units?

Well, the effect would only last for the initial blast, but basically ya.

DemolitionSquid
10-07-2012, 10:00 PM
How about an ability to protect mech then? Maybe an AOE based ability (EMP sized) that pushes back light units, including your own. Zealots/zerglings/banelings (are banelings light?) come rushing in, you use this ability once units have reached your tank line, giving extra firing time to your tanks.

Of course, you could use it for other things like pushing units into a siege line, or pushing a DT away from your SCVs.

I've been thinking, and I acctually feel this idea may have potential. An attack or ability that's the reverse of Vortex - instead of pulling the enemy in, it pushes them apart slightly. It would help literally split up deathballs, forcing larger gaps between units in formation, but in so doing also obviously make splash damage less powerful. This would make its targeting a strategic choice to force the enemy away in the right way at the right time.

The problems I forsee in theorycrafting this ability are its directional force mechanics and its origin. If its a direct unit targeting attack, should it hit the front of the unit, forcing it and adjacent units directly backwards away from the Terran unit firing it, or should it center on the enemy unit and force other units away from that unit instead? Or would it be better as an ability like EMP where the player can force the enemy in any direction by targeting the ground next to them? Also, what mech unit would fire this attack/ability? Would it be best on the Thor, or unsieged Tank, or a 4th Raven ability, or something entirely new?

Triceron
10-07-2012, 10:08 PM
It sounds a lot like the old pushback mechanic the marauder had. Wasn't it taken out because it caused a lot of bugs? I think the continual pushback was affecting pathing or positioning of units

DemolitionSquid
10-07-2012, 10:26 PM
It sounds a lot like the old pushback mechanic the marauder had. Wasn't it taken out because it caused a lot of bugs? I think the continual pushback was affecting pathing or positioning of units

I can't really remember. As far as I recall Concussive Shells was always just a slowing debuff, not a push.

Carsickness
10-07-2012, 10:42 PM
Or would it be better as an ability like EMP where the player can force the enemy in any direction by targeting the ground next to them? Also, what mech unit would fire this attack/ability? Would it be best on the Thor, or unsieged Tank, or a 4th Raven ability, or something entirely new?

Ya, EMP kind of deal, so you can have more control over it. Like the example I gave; where you could push units away, or push them towards you, depending on how you choose to use it.
Push high Templars away right at the start of a battle.....or cast it right on top of a psi storm, pushing your units out of it.....hmmm maybe too powerful :p

I want to lean more towards the raven, but I'm thinking that this ability would raise the raven count quite significantly from what it is now (on average). So that in turn means more homing missiles, an with the addition of the new spider mine + tanks, the AOE is going to be out of control. So I'm going to bring up the Nomad once again (mech support unit).


It sounds a lot like the old pushback mechanic the marauder had. Wasn't it taken out because it caused a lot of bugs? I think the continual pushback was affecting pathing or positioning of units

Ya, that's why I was thinking only light units. I want to move units attacking the tanks, not the tanks them selves. That would look really weird too...

FF pushes smaller units. Picture that but without the physical FF.