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The_Blade
09-28-2012, 07:56 PM
HotS forum post (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6758675889)


We will be bringing the beta service down this afternoon to make the following balance changes:

Protoss

Mothership Core:

Purify has been changed to the following:

Purify can now only be cast on your Nexus at max 10 range.
Once cast, the mothership core will attach itself to the Nexus, transforming into a weapon with range 10.
While attached to the Nexus, the mothership core will be unable to cast abilities and regenerate energy.
The damage of Purify has been lowered to 20 and can attack both air and ground units.
Purify will last until cancelled.

Recall has been changed to the following:

Recall is now a simple cast-and-click ability on a player’s Nexus.
Once cast, the mothership core and every friendly unit within a 7-range radius to the core will be recalled to the Nexus.

A new ranged weapon called Repulsor Cannon has been added to the mothership core while in its mobile state.

Repulsor Cannon deals 8 damage to ground units with an attack speed of 0.85.

The cost of the mothership core has increased from 50/50 to 100/100.
Movement speed has increased from 0.47 to 1.875.

Oracle


Health has increased from 20/80 to 60/100.
Speed has decreased from 3.75 to 3.375.
The duration of Entomb has increased from 30 to 45.


Terran

Widow Mine

The duration of Activate Mine has been decreased to 2 sec.Auto-cast can now be turned off in both activated and deactivated modes.


Zerg

Swarm Host


Locust attack range has increased from 2 to 3.
Locust damage has been reduced from 14 to 12.


Bug Fixes


Battle hellions can no longer load into Bunkers.
The splash damage from widow mines will no longer hit friendly activated widow mines.
The Stargate Command Card now properly includes a Set Rally Point button.
Swarm hosts now have proper collision while burrowed.

David Kim's comments (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6758985883#1)

thoughts?

Carsickness
09-28-2012, 08:20 PM
little confused....if a mothership core is within 10 range of a nexus and uses purify it warps to the nexus? ya?
so if its not within 10 range, purify doesn't work? and what if your completely in the middle between 2 nexus'?

I like the changes though :)

Pr0nogo
09-28-2012, 09:13 PM
If you're not within the range of 10, I imagine the ability returns the 'out of range' error.

Also, goddamn, did you not read that post? Its formatting is atrocious. Copy/pasting out of Battle.net or wherever you did so from is a no-no. -waggles finger-

The_Blade
09-28-2012, 09:23 PM
hmm, thought I'd fixed that. Anyways, there it is.

DemolitionSquid
09-28-2012, 09:23 PM
Those Mothership Core changes are SO confusing!

What I read:
- Mothership Core now flies 4 times faster
- has a regular AtG attack of 8 at a .85 cooldown
- If the Mothership Core is in range 10 of a Nexus and uses Purify, it teleports to the nexus and basically becomes an immobile giant Photon Cannon until you tell it to stop
- Recall is now a Nexus ability. I assume it shares energy with Chronoboost. When cast, it Recalls the Mothership Core and any units near it to the Nexus.

Does that sound right?

Edit: Read David Kims explaination. It says the Mothership Core now targets a Nexus to Recall to it. So I'm confused... is Recall on the Nexus or on the Core?

The_Blade
09-28-2012, 09:28 PM
Nope, mothership core now works more like a "glass" town portal scroll. You have to take it with your army in order to retreat. You just select the target nexus where you want the warp in to happen.

DemolitionSquid
09-28-2012, 09:33 PM
I see.

I acctually like these changes a bit more then. Definitely a more defensive unit.

Consider: base is being attacked. Use Purify to quell. Purify not powerful enough, Recall to another Nexus with all remaining Probes in range. Sweet.

Alar
09-29-2012, 05:44 AM
The Recall change is rather startling. No more raids and sneaky harassment attacks followed up by a quick Recall! If you want to do anything like that, you'll have to risk your Mothership Core.

RamiZ
09-29-2012, 09:07 AM
The Recall change is rather startling. No more raids and sneaky harassment attacks followed up by a quick Recall! If you want to do anything like that, you'll have to risk your Mothership Core.

Which is the point? You won't sacrifice it, you have to play carefully because you might lose it. The old Recall with no cooldown and 100 energy cost means you can just go for an all-in attack where you would destroy enemy base with no drawbacks whatsoever, since you will just recall your whole army with minimal losses, and you could do that TWICE! Now Mothership core is as mobile as Overlord with upgraded speed, so you can still do that, but it might fail if you don't micro properly or enemy tricks you somehow.

I definitely like it, I just don't know about the Purify, it seems a bit weak that is only 20 damage now and only can go on Nexus, becomes Immobile, and can't cast any spells.You have normal attack with Mothership Core now, so it seems like that Purify isn't really worth it.

TheEconomist
09-29-2012, 09:17 AM
I like the idea of taking my Core with you. Makes it less turbo noob.

Carsickness
09-29-2012, 10:03 AM
It's strange that the core can only attach onto a Nexus. It kind of defeats the purpose of purify, since it's used for base defense.
The Nexus is way at the back of all of it behind the standard Protoss wall off. The only thing I can see it being used for now is worker harassment and run by', and at 20 damage, it's really not going to do a very good job at that either.
Sure it could be used properly on certain maps where Toss is forced to expand using the Nexus as part of the wall, but there are fewer and fewer of those.

I thought the purpose of the core early game is to give you a choice of whether to get a forge for cannons and be behind on your cyber core, or to get the mothership core and rely on it's more situational defense.

It should be allowed to attach to any building while in purify mode. Maybe even "siphoning" the power from that building to do so, essentially making that building un-powered for the duration.

Also, since i'm already in theory crafting mode it would be nice to bring back the removed mothership ability; Planet cracker. You guys remember that one?
It would be interesting to give that to the MS-core. Would be great to use it during front door holds. Throw down some force fields and let er' rip.



KHeXWZGYeNQ

I'm thinking a very dumbed down version of this. A lot smaller AOE and a movement speed decrease while active, but you get the idea.

DemolitionSquid
09-29-2012, 12:12 PM
I've been actively working on ways to bring back Planet Cracker that don't involve outright sacrificing the Mothership (or any other unit) late game. Its just doesn't seem feasible most of the time because the nature of the attack is to be above the enemy, shooting straight down.

I do, however, have 2 ideas that may work.

1. The Mothership leaves the battlefield once the ability is targeted. When the ability is used, the Mothership flies up off the screen, and rains down the Planet Cracker from out of view as a form of mobile Psi Storm.

2. The Mothership or other unit sends out several Interceptor/Drone-like devices that then hover over the enemy, and channel the Planet Cracker from some source outside the screen.

Pr0nogo
09-29-2012, 12:36 PM
That kind of thing feels like one of those 'ultimate powers' we saw in many other games. I honestly am not really averse to that kind of stuff, but I don't think it'd work well with the jumble that is the current melee scene, and then you'd have to devise orbital bombardments or something for Terrans and the use of a Swarm Beacon or something for Zerg to balance it all out in a way that doesn't feel like one race gets the "best or coolest ability".

Carsickness
09-29-2012, 07:12 PM
That kind of thing feels like one of those 'ultimate powers' we saw in many other games. I honestly am not really averse to that kind of stuff, but I don't think it'd work well with the jumble that is the current melee scene, and then you'd have to devise orbital bombardments or something for Terrans and the use of a Swarm Beacon or something for Zerg to balance it all out in a way that doesn't feel like one race gets the "best or coolest ability".

I'm not talking a giant AOE planet cracker, or even a psi storm sized ability. Something smaller then that.
Again, i'm thinking more of the front door Toss defense scenario where you could force field some roaches in and have some cannons and stalkers attacking while you have your MS-core patrolling back and forth over the ramp with planet cracker activated (doing terrible terrible damage:p).
And maybe even have it sneak off during an attack to planet crack some drones or a building while your enemy is pre-occupied with the death ball.

Maybe have the planet cracker drain energy while in use. So a full energy MS-core using it over a lower HP structure (barracks/gateway/spawning pool/ destructible rocks) could take it down....if left unattended for a large amount of time.


Its just doesn't seem feasible most of the time because the nature of the attack is to be above the enemy, shooting straight down.

ya, it would suck vs. a non-meching Terran, and a mirror match up as well. But it could be quite useful vs. Zerg early/mid game.

I've just been really struggling to find a purpose for this unit. It doesn't seem all that interesting to me as a Protoss player. Sad how it's still the most interesting of the new units though. It's nice that we bring it along with the death ball now, but again it really doesn't do much while it's there.

Another idea would be to bring back another lost Mothership ability: Time Bomb. A Modified version of it anyways:
Make it A LOT smaller (lol) and something that can be cast away from the MS-Core. It would effect air units/battles only.

B-g07jrJeOc

The ability would stop AtA projectiles from passing through it, meaning that it would be a terrain controling ability. Kind of like an air version of Force Field. Only it doesn't block air units from moving through it, just their attacks.
So the idea would be to cast this ability directly between their Vikings/corrupters and your Colossi. Forcing the enemy to re-position their air units. Hopefully somewhere more beneficial to you.
The balancing would come from the duration and actual AOE size of the ability and it would have a cooler name then "Time Bomb"....something like Gravity Vortex, or Void Sphincter :D
Similar to the Raven's PDT I know, but different in the sense that it's only effective against Air.

The Mothership can cast a vortex, so why can't its' core do something similar but less powerful?

Again, i'm just trying to come up with reasons for me to actually use this unit.

Edit: btw here's a explanation video of the MS-core:
1EFmMxXBoFg
I'm thinking the "F2" ability helps Toss the most :P a-attack for the win lol

mr. peasant
09-30-2012, 06:21 AM
Greetings. I've been away for awhile and not really been paying close attention to the beta. Anyway, looking at the recent changes to the Mothership Core, I can't help but notice the following issues:

1. When Blizzard first developed the new HotS Protoss units, one of the key points they were aiming for is not to strengthen the Protoss death ball too much. However, the way Recall works now does so more than ever. By having the MC teleport itself and nearby units to any Nexus of the player's choice (as opposed to teleporting the units to its location), Protoss players don't really need to worry too much about leaving behind defensive units to guard a base. Instead, those units can simply be added directly into the Protoss death ball. At least with the old Recall, Protoss players had to be wary about it as they were limited to whichever base the MC was located at.

2. Purify is virtually worthless past the first five minutes of a game (i.e. once the Protoss player has a working army). From that point on, it would be better to instead have the MC tag along with an army and recalling them to defend a base in the event of an attack as doing so allows you to defend all expansions/bases where as Purify can only defend one while leaving the others undefended.

3. Purify's damage output needs to be substantially increased. At 20 damage, it can't one-shot a Zergling and requires 3 shots to kill a Marine. Yes, it has a very long range but even taking that into account, an enemy run-by can still deal a substantial amount of damage. Also, unless it has a very high rate of fire, a Planetary Fortress has a higher damage output, splash and a player can have more than one at a time. Considering it is a special ability and the player can only have one MC at a time, this feels somewhat lackluster.


As such, what I propose is that Purify should at the very least have its energy requirement halved; providing it at least a leg up over Recall by way of being more energy efficient. Even then, its damage output should also be upped to 40; at least against biological or ground units.

A second suggestion would be to replace Purify entirely. Perhaps giving the MC the Terrans' old Call-down ability or to have the MC instantly summon a number of ranged, defensive units (you could even stick to calling them Purifiers (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Purifier)!) when it anchors itself to a Nexus, with each one instantly replaced when killed. They would be player-controlled but cannot stray beyond a certain range of the MC.

Carsickness
09-30-2012, 10:17 AM
have the MC instantly summon a number of ranged, defensive units (you could even stick to calling them Purifiers (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Purifier)!) when it anchors itself to a Nexus, with each one instantly replaced when killed. They would be player-controlled but cannot stray beyond a certain range of the MC.

Ohhh I like that one. Kind of like a Nexus carrier!
Purifiers whirling around shooting shit. Definitely a deterrent just by looking at it.

Reminds me of this video:

5Ee8x_qo3BQ


.....if the xelnaga tower thing was a Nexus.

Noctis
09-30-2012, 10:48 AM
Ohhh I like that one. Kind of like a Nexus carrier!
Purifiers whirling around shooting shit. Definitely a deterrent just by looking at it.

Reminds me of this video:

5Ee8x_qo3BQ


.....if the xelnaga tower thing was a Nexus.

kind of reminds me of a nexus/hive combo. nexus design with the hive spires techno version. ABOMINATION!

DemolitionSquid
09-30-2012, 01:21 PM
I'd really love to see Time Bomb return somehow. It could easily fit on the Mothership Core or Oracle.

RamiZ
09-30-2012, 05:22 PM
I'd really love to see Time Bomb return somehow. It could easily fit on the Mothership Core or Oracle.

Yup, by improving Death Balls even more... in the end, they will change the MS Core mass recall again, and they will change the Phase Shield from Oracle, maybe even replace it with the new spell.

DemolitionSquid
09-30-2012, 05:54 PM
I just had an idea about Planet Cracker. The problem has been getting the Mothership (or other unit) that's creating it over the target area. This is because the unit will usually die extremely fast when its over an enemy army. But why are we assuming the unit has to be vulnerable during that period its moving over the enemy army? What if it was only vulnerable while over the target firing?

Point 1: In Star Trek, the Romulans have cloaking technology, sending them slightly out of sync with normal space. However, they can only attack when they uncloak and rejoin normal space.

Point 2: In WoL beta, the High Templar had an ability, Phase Shift. It sent any unit out of "phase" with the normal game terrain, completely removing it from play for several seconds.

Point 3: Protoss cloaking in SC2 is reduced from its Broodwar power. This is because the cloaking field was transferred from the numerous Arbiter to the one-only Mothership.

Point 4: I fucking hate the Carrier's life-link.

Proposition: Scrap Carrier. Introduce new unit: Protoss Shade (name under review).

In HotS we've seen the addition of more varying state units. Hellion can become Battle Hellion. Swarm Host can only move while above terrain, and only attack while burrowed. Mothership Core attaches to Nexus to Purify. The Shade I suggest is a flying unit that also has two states/modes. The first is its movement mode. It is permanently cloaked, OR my preferred option - intangible. Much like the High Templar's old Phase Shift ability, this means it cannot interact with the battlefield in any way. The enemy can still see it, but cannot attack it or hit it with spells. The Shade itself cannot attack, and will pass harmlessly though other air units. All it can do is move through the aether at a decent pace. When the Shade reaches its desired destination, the player can then choose to "unphase" the Shade and bring it back to the game over several seconds, at which point it can then attack.

And what might that attack consist of, you ask.

PLANET CRACKER.

But wait, there's more!

As much as I hate the Carrier, I acknowledge its uniqueness as a unit, specifically that it builds and maintains Interceptors that attack independently of the core Carrier, which die if the core dies. The honest issue I have with the Carrier is that life-link. So I believe we have 2 options here.

1. The Shade is a single unit that simply attacks everything underneath it with Planet Cracker. It could travel around very slowly to make best use of its top-down attack. The transition from phased to unphased would be several seconds, giving an attentive enemy the option to kill it before it enters Planet Cracking mode. This is my preferred option.

2. The Shade acts like the Carrier with Interceptors, but with no life-link (change unit name to Shadow Legion just for giggles). The main Shade has a powerful beam. Several smaller ships fly around the core, with their own little beams. See video:

KHeXWZGYeNQ

Notice how Planet Cracker is in fact 8 separate beams. Five small ones in the centre of the Mothership, and 3 large ones at the tips. My suggestion here would be to have the main Shade use the large ones, and have X smaller ships fly around it, each with a smaller beam. Each of the smaller ships are independently target-able, the distinction from the carrier being, that if the main Shade dies the little ones stay alive and continue to attack. However, they cannot reenter Phased mode without the main Shade. Frankly, I hate this option.

Uses:
- Base raiding: fly in phased, unphase to Planet Crack, phase back to escape.
- Out of death-ball area denial: you can bring the Shade with your deathball, but it can't do anything inside it. Place it ahead of your army to deter the enemy army from advancing, lest you unphase. Or push forward with Shades, making enemy retreat, as the rest of your army follows along behind.
- Defense: place Shade in mineral line or on ramp. enemy drop or push comes, unphase on top of enemy and rain down Planet Cracking goodness.

...

I know its a crazy idea but fuck, I'm REALLY desperate to get rid of the Carrier.

Possible alternate names: Phantom, Morningstar, Dominator, Phase Shifter (derp)

flak4321
10-02-2012, 03:02 PM
From what I understand, purify was meant as a purely defensive option, so they had to make a concession with purify given the core's new speed. They did however compensate with a non-power attack.

In the video posted by Carsickness above, Husky poses the possibility of the core by itself being an early game harass unit, which is a real threat especially on close spawn maps. The recall ability makes this even more threatening. Note also the units being recalled can still take damage while the animation is in effect, on either end of the transport.

In fact, Husky gives us a White-Ra video where White-Ra tries this vs. a Terran names AiCola who uses widow mines quite well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGlw9ZyEOwA&feature=g-all-u

Sorry, i haven't quite learned how to add this as others have. :P

Pr0nogo
10-02-2012, 05:10 PM
Huh. Blizzard's making really drastic changes to their unit design.

Almost as if they hadn't really thought any of it through.

DemolitionSquid
10-02-2012, 05:34 PM
Huh. Blizzard's making really drastic changes to their unit design.

Almost as if they hadn't really thought any of it through.

They didn't. They even state so in their design motto. Create "cool," outrageous, overpowered stuff first. Make it work and balance it second.

Pr0nogo
10-02-2012, 07:18 PM
I think it's retarded how they went from 'let's not make Protoss players rely on deathballs with our new units' to 'let's change the new units to aid the deathballs', specifically targeting the Mothership Core here. So silly.

Honestly, their design motto (assuming that's accurate) is so far beyond childish.

DemolitionSquid
10-02-2012, 07:31 PM
Honestly, their design motto (assuming that's accurate) is so far beyond childish.

It's accurate. Browder and Metzen have said so multiple times.

Pr0nogo
10-02-2012, 07:36 PM
browder brigayd

flak4321
10-05-2012, 09:20 AM
I agree with the childishness of the approach but also with the approach. Basically what they seem to be doing is making sure the new units have a cool factor and a purpose that will make players use them. Yes, this does lead to some wasted efforts and adds to the definition of "soon", but it makes sense in Blizz's get it right before launch credo.

Triceron
10-05-2012, 12:58 PM
I think they're in a tough spot. It seems like they're trying to make Brood War 2.0 without having it be Brood War 2.0. Lurkers? Lets do something better with Swarm Host. Firebats? Lets transform the Hellions instead. Terrans could use some mines again, lets add that, but not make it like spidermines. Oh fuck it, just make em like spidermines.

Then you get the new units like the Warhound and Tempest, which seemed like they had a unique place but never really worked out in their roles as intended. I don't really see where they're going with it, but I really hope they know what they're doing.

As for thinking they're crazy for these massive shifts in design; even in Brood War half of the new units were drastically changed from their original design before they made the cut. Valkyrie was a Air to Ground siege weapon, Corsair didn't get its rapid-fire attack till much later, and they added more cloaked/burrowed units but didn't accomodate it with better detection till after release.

We're not seeing the exact same thing here, but blizzard testing out wild and crazy changes isn't out of the norm.

DemolitionSquid
10-05-2012, 01:24 PM
As for thinking they're crazy for these massive shifts in design; even in Brood War half of the new units were drastically changed from their original design before they made the cut. Valkyrie was a Air to Ground siege weapon, Corsair didn't get its rapid-fire attack till much later, and they added more cloaked/burrowed units but didn't accomodate it with better detection till after release.

We're not seeing the exact same thing here, but blizzard testing out wild and crazy changes isn't out of the norm.

What "massive shifts in design?" What "wild and crazy ideas?" You JUST said they're making BroodWar 2.0; Lurker = Swarm Host, HellBat = Firebat, Widow Mine = Spider Mine. We're upset because Blizzard ISN"T doing anything new. They're falling back on what worked before instead of really giving new ideas a try. Blinding Cloud = Disruption Web. Carrier put back in even though its fucking broken as all hell. Frankly, I'm pissed as hell at Blizzard for so blatantly giving up on new ideas.

Carsickness
10-05-2012, 06:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGlw9ZyEOwA&feature=g-all-u



cool vid! here's another one of husky's showing MS-core harass:

98LS0Iu2vx8