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View Full Version : Give Thor Haywire. Everyone Wins.



DemolitionSquid
09-23-2012, 08:56 PM
Fact 1: Thor is hardly used, period. Even in TvZ as anti-Muta.
Fact 2: 250mm Strike Cannons are NEVER used.
Fact 3: Terran need a way to make Factory/mech viable.
Fact 4: Terran need a way to counter TvT siege lines and Protoss "death balls."

Proposition: Scrap 250mm Strike Cannons. Give the Thor anti-mech Haywire missile spread.

Solves: Overall lack of Thor use.
Solves: Lack of Thor use as intended tanking unit.
Solves: Lack of TvT and TvP mech power.
Solves: Overpowered mass Warhound issue.

BOOM.

SebiAlex
09-23-2012, 10:53 PM
Should the Thor keep the energy (feedback), maybe less than current, and the haywire use it (as an auto-cast ability)?

Alar
09-24-2012, 03:08 AM
BADDA BING BADDA BOOM~! I'd like to see this implemented in beta. DSquid, why don't you start a thread on the official forums?

DemolitionSquid
09-24-2012, 11:49 AM
Should the Thor keep the energy (feedback), maybe less than current, and the haywire use it (as an auto-cast ability)?

I think the hybrid energy/cooldown (like medevac heal) idea I discussed in another thread could still work here. If its an anti-mech build, the going Templar should still be functional to counter it, and without Feedback that's very hard.


BADDA BING BADDA BOOM~! I'd like to see this implemented in beta. DSquid, why don't you start a thread on the official forums?

There are several very good reasons I post here, and not the official forums or Team Liquid. If you want to repost my ideas there, feel free, but fuck if I'm going to involve myself in those cess pools.

Rake
09-24-2012, 11:59 AM
I think the hybrid energy/cooldown (like medevac heal) idea I discussed in another thread could still work here.

Also from the other thread, I would suggest the missile damage look something like:

5 damage + 20 v mechanical (numbers subject to balance)

The intention being that the other player could bait out the missiles or that large numbers of thors could snipe spell casters etc.

DemolitionSquid
09-24-2012, 12:10 PM
Also from the other thread, I would suggest the missile damage look something like:

5 damage + 20 v mechanical (numbers subject to balance)

The intention being that the other player could bait out the missiles or that large numbers of thors could snipe spell casters etc.

Haywire did 30 damage to mechanical units every 6 seconds. There was no X + Y to the ability. The Thor already has a GtG attack of (30 x 2), and a GtA attack of [(6 + 6 vs light) x 4].

The cost of the Warhound was 150/75. The Thor is 300/200. We know the Warhound was not yet balanced and appeared to be OP, with a regular attack of 23. Based on this, I believe a good starting point for balancing the power of a Thor-based Haywire would be 45 damage per 6 second cooldown.

flak4321
09-24-2012, 03:15 PM
I don't like this. 2 reasons: (1) Thor tech is expensive and tends to preclude vikings vs collos. (2) Still doesn't give an answer to all TvP death balls as Terran mech fairs poorly vs collos without viking. This would therefore have a very small window of viability highly dependent on the Terran grabbing a 4th base. Edit point: would be viable in biomech vs deathball builds at any time.

I've not enough TvT experience to comment.

Rake
09-24-2012, 03:28 PM
Haywire did 30 damage to mechanical units every 6 seconds. There was no X + Y to the ability. The Thor already has a GtG attack of (30 x 2), and a GtA attack of [(6 + 6 vs light) x 4].



The reason that I recommend the X + Y is the possibility to waste damage to fake attacks. Pros will of course turn off the auto-cast and select the targets, but that seems more challenging if they can accidentally target a zealot instead of a stalker.

Further, the minor damage could be used deliberately to finish off damaged high templar or other such 'trick' uses.

DemolitionSquid
09-24-2012, 03:39 PM
I don't like this. 2 reasons: (1) Thor tech is expensive and tends to preclude vikings vs collos. (2) Still doesn't give an answer to all TvP death balls as Terran mech fairs poorly vs collos without viking. This would therefore have a very small window of viability highly dependent on the Terran grabbing a 4th base. Edit point: would be viable in biomech vs deathball builds at any time.

I've not enough TvT experience to comment.

Colossi are helpless without units to tank for them. Those units are Zealots, Stalkers, Immortals, Archons. Right now, you need Vikings to kill Colossi.

So here are the scenarios I'm building:

TvP
Keeping the Templar avenue of play viable is vital as a counter to Terran mech play. However, with Haywire from a couple Thors evaporating the Stalkers and Immortals, and Battle Hellions melting the Zealots, all you'd have to acctually deal with an average death ball are the Archons and Colossi. Haywire hits Colossi as well, and Thors crush Force Feilds, so once you can get your Thors close enough (Haywire 6 range) they'll demolish the Colossi. The tradeoff in cost of Thor versus Viking utility will be negligible.

Building Thors for your mech army will cut into your Siege Tanks, Hellions, and Vikings. It is also true they are usually a later game unit. Adding Haywire acctually solves these issues. By buffing the Thor this way, the Thor becomes a response unit to seeing a Protoss building up their Stalker/Colossi deathball. By only adding a few Thors, a single production cycle from the 4-8 Factories you'll have anyway as a meching player, will easily help the Thor become a powerhouse in anti Protoss mech play.

TvT
The purpose of Haywire/Warhound in TvT was to help break siege lines. Thors have already used in the past to bust down Terran Siege Tank lines, they're just not extremely effective at it. Because bio play is so prominent, Nukes are preferred for the line-breaking task. By giving the Thor Haywire, a meching player as a real alternative to Nukes, regardless of if the enemy play is going bio supported by tanks or pure mech themselves. The Thor becomes a more useful unit all around.


The reason that I recommend the X + Y is the possibility to waste damage to fake attacks. Pros will of course turn off the auto-cast and select the targets, but that seems more challenging if they can accidentally target a zealot instead of a stalker.

Further, the minor damage could be used deliberately to finish off damaged high templar or other such 'trick' uses.

I'm considering the possibility that the Thor be given a direct + attack instead of the Haywire ability. Right now its 30 x 2 has no bonus. Making its regular attack [(30 + 20 vs Mechanical) x 2] could be effective, just as the Archon has (25 + 10 vs Biological).

TheProgramer
09-24-2012, 03:58 PM
I have mixed feelings about this.

The Thor's current ability doesn't see much use, except in Thor vs Thor, Thorr vs Immortal, and in some cases Thor vs Ultra.
The ability does less damage than the Thor would do in that time as soon as +1 vehicle attack has been upgraded (Since the DPS of the 250mm Strike Cannon is 50 (500 damage over 10 seconds), getting a Level 1 Vehicle upgrade will enable the Thor to have a greater Ground DPS than the Cannons [46.9 + 4.7]*).

So to have the Haywire Missles given to the Thor would allow it an ability that sees a greater use.
I like that.

But I feel that Thor is already very powerfull and this spell might push it over the limit. The current Thor's ability does marginally more damage than it's standard attack before +1 is reaserched. And it's real use is in it's stun. Of the three things this ability usually is used against, one of them (Ultralisk) doesn't even get stunned!
So the ability doesn't really give the Thor that much of a greater damage output.

Haywire Missles, drastically increases it's damage vs mechincal and that might throw it over the edge.

Good ideas guys, let's keep the tweaks coming!


*taken from liquidpedia

flak4321
09-24-2012, 04:58 PM
Colossi are helpless without units to tank for them. Those units are Zealots, Stalkers, Immortals, Archons. Right now, you need Vikings to kill Colossi.

So here are the scenarios I'm building:

TvP
Keeping the Templar avenue of play viable is vital as a counter to Terran mech play. However, with Haywire from a couple Thors evaporating the Stalkers and Immortals, and Battle Hellions melting the Zealots, all you'd have to acctually deal with an average death ball are the Archons and Colossi. Haywire hits Colossi as well, and Thors crush Force Feilds, so once you can get your Thors close enough (Haywire 6 range) they'll demolish the Colossi. The tradeoff in cost of Thor versus Viking utility will be negligible.

Building Thors for your mech army will cut into your Siege Tanks, Hellions, and Vikings. It is also true they are usually a later game unit. Adding Haywire acctually solves these issues. By buffing the Thor this way, the Thor becomes a response unit to seeing a Protoss building up their Stalker/Colossi deathball. By only adding a few Thors, a single production cycle from the 4-8 Factories you'll have anyway as a meching player, will easily help the Thor become a powerhouse in anti Protoss mech play.

TvT
The purpose of Haywire/Warhound in TvT was to help break siege lines. Thors have already used in the past to bust down Terran Siege Tank lines, they're just not extremely effective at it. Because bio play is so prominent, Nukes are preferred for the line-breaking task. By giving the Thor Haywire, a meching player as a real alternative to Nukes, regardless of if the enemy play is going bio supported by tanks or pure mech themselves. The Thor becomes a more useful unit all around.



I'm considering the possibility that the Thor be given a direct + attack instead of the Haywire ability. Right now its 30 x 2 has no bonus. Making its regular attack [(30 + 20 vs Mechanical) x 2] could be effective, just as the Archon has (25 + 10 vs Biological).

Lol. I'll admit I did not consider all possible unit back-up possibilities. I was thinking of mass instances where you would have 6-10 collos with reasonable support vs the same or even a slightly larger number of thors with proper support. I usually have chargelot blinker supporting my collos with some archons if gas allows. Upgrades as close to max, inc shields, as possible.

I would agree with both the haywire and the bonus on the Thor on the grounds that the haywire missile would need to be used in place of the damage. I.E. the haywire upgrade at the armory would replace one of the thors primary weapons giving it 30 + 20 vs mech x1 plus 1 haywire launcher.

Rake
09-25-2012, 01:52 AM
.

I'm considering the possibility that the Thor be given a direct + attack instead of the Haywire ability. Right now its 30 x 2 has no bonus. Making its regular attack [(30 + 20 vs Mechanical) x 2] could be effective, just as the Archon has (25 + 10 vs Biological).

A bonus v mechanical could certainly be effective. However, a missile attack could create extra micro opportunities, especially if it had a greater range than the standard attack or was able to front load a lot of damage.

TheEconomist
09-25-2012, 01:44 PM
Thor.

Micro.

What?

DemolitionSquid
09-25-2012, 02:20 PM
Thor.

Micro.

What?

Not microing the Thor. Microing against the Thor.

Rake
09-26-2012, 01:40 PM
Not microing the Thor. Microing against the Thor.

That, and also I suggest that the missile is targetable by the play so selecting targets would be important. It would also be autocast.

Quirel
09-26-2012, 05:43 PM
That, and also I suggest that the missile is targetable by the play so selecting targets would be important. It would also be autocast.
So... the missile can be targeted by a unit?

They tried that in WoL alpha with the Infestor. Didn't seem to work out.

Rake
09-27-2012, 01:28 AM
So... the missile can be targeted by a unit?

They tried that in WoL alpha with the Infestor. Didn't seem to work out.

Whoops. Sorry, I meant that you can control the thor to fire the missile where you want. Or it can be set to random and auto-cast.

TheProgramer
10-25-2012, 11:05 AM
From Dustin:


"We did test out Haywire missile on the Thor yesterday. It has some value, but didn't do all that much because of the cost of the Thor. The unit is expensive enough that it is difficult to get a lot of them into play. The other concern we had was that it was just a huge burst of damage at the beginning of a fight and not all that interesting. You just know that when you engage a force with a couple of Thors you were going to lose some mech units to start with."

SOURCE: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6934365340#11

DemolitionSquid
10-25-2012, 02:44 PM
Why didn't they try just giving the Thor a +X vs Mechanical bonus to its regular attack?

Like seriously, DERP.

phazonjunkie
10-26-2012, 06:07 AM
"We did test out Haywire missile on the Thor yesterday. It has some value, but didn't do all that much because of the cost of the Thor. The unit is expensive enough that it is difficult to get a lot of them into play. The other concern we had was that it was just a huge burst of damage at the beginning of a fight and not all that interesting. You just know that when you engage a force with a couple of Thors you were going to lose some mech units to start with."

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/5/6/129176731868613800.jpg