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View Full Version : Give the Viking Haywire Missile



TheProgramer
09-14-2012, 04:23 PM
Give the ground-version of the Viking the Haywire Missile.

Additionaly perhaps make it availabe in the Factory in addition to the Starport, and it not able to transform to the air version untill a Starport is built.



I mentioned this when the Warhound was first made, but the latest patch really makes me think this is the way to go!

Caliban113
09-14-2012, 04:52 PM
Hmm - you know, this has some merit to think over

DemolitionSquid
09-14-2012, 05:05 PM
Give the ground-version of the Viking the Haywire Missile.

Additionaly perhaps make it availabe in the Factory in addition to the Starport, and it not able to transform to the air version untill a Starport is built.

I mentioned this when the Warhound was first made, but the latest patch really makes me think this is the way to go!

Here's my thought-process response to this, from a Protoss players POV. Base thought: it would solve exactly nothing.

Vikings currently compete with the Medevac for Starport use. No one really builds Starports for anything else (until late game) except Banshee rushes. Its basically all Reactor pumped Medevacs and Vikings. The important thing here to note, is the build time competition between the Medevac and Viking. "When do I stop my Medevac production to start making Vikings?" is an extremely common question, especially in TvP. If the Viking was moved to the Factory, then Starports would become non-stop Medevac shops. The Viking would no longer compete for build time.

Instead, it would compete for build-time with Siege Tanks, Hellions, Widow Mines, and Thors. This would, I believe, lead to a massive swell in bio play. With Medevacs a constant resource from the Starport, M&M is a clear choice. A (2-6Bar M&M/1-2Fac Vik /1-2Star Med) style play seems reasonable. By swapping between Vikings and Siege Tanks you'd be able to competently deal with any army you encountered. Basically the exact same bio composition we see now, just a lot more people doing it. This is acctually all fine. Bio is not currently overpowered.

Now, add Haywire ground mode to that. They start dealing extreme damage to Stalkers, on top of all the Marauders doing so already. Once the Stalkers die, the Vikings return to air mode and obliterate Colossi unopposed. Protoss suddenly needs to change their unit composition to deal with this new trend, to a Zealot/Templar mixture.

Unsurprisingly, this is EXACTLY what already happened in HotS TvP with the Warhound. Protoss couldn't deal with Haywire, and just before this new patch, Protoss was going Zealot/Templar focused ground play to avoid the Haywire problem. Day[9] has been talking about it a lot. Marauder/Haywire Viking would create almost the exact same situation.

The one difference would be the inclusion of less Battle Hellions (thanks to Vikings consuming Factory build time) and more Marines. The ultimate success of the Zealot/Templar counter would be dependent upon the use of Storm to kill the Battle Hellions and Marines so the Zealots and Archons can massacre the Marauders. However, they wouldn't be able to effectively deal with the Medevacs and Vikings because of terrible anti-air capability, from lack of Stalkers. The Medevacs and Vikings would just retreat and help in the next engagement without needing to be rebuilt, giving room to the Factory to produce more Hellions to kill the Zealots, and saving gas for the replacement of Marines with Ghosts, who would subsequently EMP eveything the Protoss has into oblivion. The Terran endgame army would be Viking, Battle Hellion, Medevac, Marauder, Ghost. And the Protoss player would cry.

So ultimately, the Protoss player would have to focus on going air for TvP. Which is again, exactly what happened with the Warhound. Doh.

Pr0nogo
09-14-2012, 05:06 PM
I really don't see how this will benefit anyone. It just makes Vikings strong versus all ground unit types (except when up against Zerg).

flak4321
09-16-2012, 05:05 PM
I really don't see how this will benefit anyone. It just makes Vikings strong versus all ground unit types (except when up against Zerg).

Lol, methinks you misunderstood this nicely. The haywire missle only targets other mech units (it may be armored units, so i could be wrong), so most ground units would be unaffected. I honestly think some version of this suggestion would be a more than adequate direction in which to proceed.

I furthermore agree with DS that vikes should stay on the starport. Make the missile a reactor upgrade priced 150/150 with a quickish 30-40 second research time, similar to the hellion blue flame upgrade.

DS: I have actually been asked by a few friends new to SC about medi vs. vike, and the convrsation turned heavily toward the economic standing of the T in comparison to his/her foe. Optimally, we agreed, if you have the econ to produce both but still can't, you don't have enough starports. Overall though, we really couldn't answer the question to any of our satisfaction, agreeing only that in tvp, vikes should be made in response to collos, alternating vike-medi if stuck on 1-2 starports.

Alar
09-17-2012, 12:56 AM
I didn't understand why they couldn't just make the Haywire Missle into an upgrade in the first place. It seems to need some balancing in terms of speed or damage, but I would think if they did attach it to another unit, it would be a little more reasonable.

The_Blade
09-17-2012, 10:31 AM
Attaching any unit with Haywire Missile will grant that unit an anti-mechanic role. It would be a pain in the ass to balance, despite its initial role. The main reason is that you now have to set your priorities on what you want the unit to do best and when. There is also a thin line between being OP and having one of the attacks being underpowered.

The problem arises when you try to balance the unit through a single role in a single interval of time, while it still has both of its attacks and other attributes. That was the main problem with the Warhound. The Warhound is overpowered vs mechanical units and good vs regular ground units. It is also a tanky unit with high DPS and the ability of being healed. Basically, anything that crawls or walks will have to deal with its absurd amount of power.

We saw no mayor nerf of the Warhound, but there was still this small nerf to its normal attack. This small nerf reduced its damage during the early game, but it was still able to deal high end game DPS. If we continue to reduce this damage output, the early game of the Warhound becomes weaker and weaker. Eventually we might see that the Warhound is UP during the early game, but still OP during the late game. Reducing it's HP or the damage output of Haywire would show the same results. The Warhound is way much more powerful in a 200/200 scenario. It's design may be compared to mass roaches. Even going for air will get your base killed. Nerfing it's supply would give us a OP early game Warhound and a UP late game Warhound. In it's current state the unit is designed to be broken unless the proper: normal damage, HM damage, hp, supply, heal, upgrades, cost and armor ratio is found. Other factors might help, like adding 50 energy as a weakness vs HT or deactivate under EMP, but the main idea is that the Warhound is quite hard to balance because of its two overlapping attacks.

DemolitionSquid
09-17-2012, 11:43 AM
Other factors might help, like adding 50 energy as a weakness vs HT or deactivate under EMP, but the main idea is that the Warhound is quite hard to balance because of its two overlapping attacks.

Brilliant. Make it energy based.

Right now, Haywire works exactly like Zealot Charge. As long as an enemy unit is in range, it will fire every 6 seconds as autocast. What if, instead, it was just a regular energy using ability instead of a passive cooldown. By simply limiting how many times it can be used in battle like this, it lets Protoss and other Terran players have a chance to come back later in the battle, or use micro to lure out the missiles before battle. Six seconds isn't much of a vulnerable window to make use of. But the X seconds it could take to charge up another energy Haywire definitely is.

The most intriguing part is it can still be autocast. A hybrid energy/autocast ability isn't something we currently have. Turn autocast on, and it expends its shots every 6 seconds, up to X maximum because of energy. Or turn it off, and the player can decide when they want to use it.

Alar
09-17-2012, 11:51 AM
That's actually an excellent idea, DS. More than that, they could give it an upgrade that increases the Warhound's energy to 100 rather than 50 (or whatever number we're working with). Something like a 200/200 that seriously boosts their usefulness against other mechanical units. I suppose the main problem still comes down to the fact that it doesn't have any other real role... what could they give it? What change would make it so its useful outside of its powerful anti-mech capabilities? Does it NEED any other role?

DemolitionSquid
09-17-2012, 11:57 AM
That's actually an excellent idea, DS. More than that, they could give it an upgrade that increases the Warhound's energy to 100 rather than 50 (or whatever number we're working with). Something like a 200/200 that seriously boosts their usefulness against other mechanical units. I suppose the main problem still comes down to the fact that it doesn't have any other real role... what could they give it? What change would make it so its useful outside of its powerful anti-mech capabilities? Does it NEED any other role?

Even without Haywire, Warhounds were still strong in TvZ. 23 damage at 1.7 speed on an armored mech unit was pretty impressive. As much as I'd prefer to see it given some kind of edge vs Zerg, I'm comfortable with selling the Warhound as a "Factory-built Marauder" because we're so low on other options right now.