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Caliban113
09-14-2012, 03:15 PM
Bnet is blocked at my work, so I cant see these details for myself (if someone would care to post)

Carrier back and Warhound gone? - Whats going on?

Who are these people who continually petition the Carrier back into the game?

Not gonna overreact, but some of these changes seriously have me questioning Blizzard's control over the game's progress, and whether or not they know what they are doing....some just seem so random. Carrier and Tempest in the same build? Completely remove Warhound before trying some reasonable tweaks?

(Caliban crosses fingers)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYgKc-zu7sw

RamiZ
09-14-2012, 03:16 PM
Yup, the patch is huge, and it is awesome!

We will be taking the beta server down this morning to make the following updates. Thanks for participating in this beta and providing us with all of your great feedback!

Zerg

Swarm Host

The locust’s attack range has decreased from 3 to 2.


Protoss

Oracle

We have removed the oracle’s Preordain ability. We have added a new area of effect ability for the oracle called Phase Shield.
Targeted friendly units are shielded from harmful effects for 5 seconds. Fungal Growth, Corruption, Contaminate, Graviton Beam, Concussive Shells, Abduct, Revelation, Vortex, and 250mm Strike Cannons – Phase Shield removes the effect and prevents units from being affected. EMP – Phase Shield removes the anti-cloaking effect but not the damage dealt. Neural Parasite – Phase Shield will not remove this effect but it will prevent units from being affected.
The energy upgrade has been removed.
Entomb’s duration has been reduced to 25 sec, but the health per Entomb has increased to 100.The cost per unit has changed from 150/200 to 150/150.


Tempest

The attack range has been reduced from 22 to 15.The basic damage has changed from 30 to 30 + massive.The ranged upgrade has been removed.


Immortal

Immortal Hardened Shield will now reduce the warhound’s Haywire Missile damage.


Mothership Core / Mothership

Recall will now cost 100 energy.
The mothership core will now start with 50 energy and when upgraded, energy will be set back to 50.\
The range of Purifier Beam has been increased from 7 to 10.


Carrier

This unit has returned to the game.



Terran

Warhound

This unit has been removed from the game.


Reaper

We have added a new passive ability called Combat Awareness. This allows reapers to see up cliffs.


Hellion

Battle hellions can now be built from the Factory. It has an Armory requirement.There is a new upgrade at the Armory that will allow transformation between Battle Mode and Normal Mode.


Widow Mine

We have removed the Armory requirement.
Second part, the David Kim on the new patch.


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Last edit: 2012-09-15 04:10:34
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)

Torte de Lini Canada. September 15 2012 03:07. Posts 23851 PM Profile Blog Quote #
Thoughts on Balance Update #2 - By David Kim

As you may know, we have entered the second week of the Heart of the Swarm beta test. Thank you all for the time and effort you have put in to playing and testing the game these last few weeks. Our plan to deliver balance patches for the beta will be very different from how we do patches on the live game. We will be making frequent iterations on balance throughout the beta test in order to reach our goals as quickly as possible. Accordingly, we expect that some of the changes we make will naturally have a larger impact on overall balance and that additional tuning may be necessary; however, we feel that the beta test is the perfect time to take these risks and learn from the results.

Here are the changes we’re planning on making this week:

Remove oracle ability: Preordain

Because Preordain overlaps with Revelation in that both spells grant vision, we’ve decided to remove Preordain. All in all, we feel that Revelation is a cooler spell because it also acts as a soft detection mechanism.

New oracle ability: Phase Shield -- Target friendly units are shielded from harmful effects for 5 seconds

Phase Shield is a new oracle ability that can be used to prevent harmful effects like the marauder’s Concussive Shells, the infestor’s Fungal Growth, or the viper’s Abduct. We feel that with the addition of swarm hosts and vipers, protoss is in need of a spell that can help against some of the new unit compositions.

Oracle Entomb changes: Duration reduced from 45 to 25Mineral Shield health increased from 75 to 100

We were facing two issues with this ability: First – lower skilled players who didn’t react quickly would take too large an economic hit. Second – higher level players who reacted almost instantly would take too little damage from the ability. This is just a first pass at attempting to solve these two issues.

Oracle cost down from 150/200 to 150/150

The cost change is to make it easier to allow protoss players to actually build these units and justify using them. As with most tuning changes in the beta, this is probably not the final cost number. As we evaluate this unit throughout the course of the beta, we will have a much better idea of what the cost of the unit should be.

Warhound has been removed from the game

We received a lot of feedback from both the general community along with many pro gamers that this unit was not working in its current state. We definitely agree. The current plan is to remove it from the beta so that we can focus testing other units.

If we locate a better design for the warhound, it will return to the beta; until then, please play the game and give your feedback without the warhound in mind.

Carrier is back!

We continue to receive a lot of feedback from both our community and professional players suggesting that the tempest is difficult to use. We agree that it’s not an easy-to-use capital ship like the carrier, and feel it could be cool to have two big air units in the protoss fleet. The carrier will be the easy-to-use, multifunctional capital ship, whereas the tempest will be a more strategic and positional unit that can’t just be blindly massed. We know how much the carrier means to everyone and think that this is a great opportunity to give the carrier another chance before making a final decision on the unit’s future.

Mothership Core rebalance

The planned changes are:

- Mothership core build cost decreased from 100/100 to 50/50
- Mothership core’s Recall energy reduced from 150 to 100
- Mothership core Purify attack range increased from 7 to 10

These are simple number changes in an attempt to reach our goals for this unit: early game defense against all-in attacks, the ability to use Recall to be more offensive without having to commit completely, and giving protoss players more choices to work with in the early game.

Tempest attack range changed to 15, Tempest damage changed from 30 to 30 +20 massive

Now that the carrier is back as the general capital ship option, we are adjusting the role of the tempest to be more specific.

The tempest is now a specific counter-unit against massive units. The plan for the tempest is to be a viable option in the PvZ late-game against broodlords as well as in the PvP late-game against mass colossi.

Mothership starts with 50 energy when upgraded from the mothership core

Having a mothership start with max energy was an unintended side-effect that accompanied the change in how the unit was being built. Vortex is an especially deadly ability, and we feel it’s important to give players fighting against the mothership some time to react. Having a mothership capable of casting two Vortexes right when they finish building is simply too much.

Reaper has a new passive ability: Battlefield Awareness – Allows Reapers to see up cliffs

We like where the Reaper is right now with the over-all changes being made to the game. The new Combat Drugs ability allows for more reaper usage early on and this early action feels both fun to play with and fun to watch.

We’d like to try to push the usage of the reaper a bit further to see if there are even cooler options for the unit. The Battlefield Awareness ability will potentially allow reapers to be used not only for early game harassment, but throughout the game as a great scouting unit.

This is one of the experimental abilities we’d like to try as we’re still in the early stages of the beta. Any feedback on the new Reaper as a whole will be greatly appreciated.

New hellion upgrade: Transformation Servos -- allows hellions to change to Battle mode

In TvZ, battle hellions with good split micro are performing a bit too well against zergling/baneling openers. Therefore, we are adding an upgrade requirement to change modes, giving zerg players more time to make the necessary adjustments to their unit composition.

Battle mode hellions can be built from the Factory

After testing this unit in the beta, we are starting to see scenarios where building only hellions, only battle hellions, or having a choice of both are all reasonable decisions. Therefore, we would like to try allowing players to build these units separately while keeping the ability to transform between modes a viable option.

Widow mine no longer has an Amory requirement

We’re barely seeing any play using widow mines in the beta right now. While we are slightly afraid of bringing in a cloaked unit so early in the tech, we decided it would be cool to see how this works out at with no Armory requirement.

Swarm host’s locust attack range decreased from 3 to 2

We are decreasing the range of the swarm host’s locusts from 3 to 2 in order to slightly reduce the unit’s effectiveness while still maintaining its usefulness in a number of different situations. After this change, locusts should be pretty deadly when able to freely attack enemy units and structures. Additionally, small to medium-sized armies will have to do some kiting in order to reduce locust counts as head-on battles will not be cost-effective. On the other hand, larger armies (especially those with lots of splash damage) will be able to take down a large amount of locusts fairly efficiently if their swarm hosts are not backed up by other units. Swarm hosts in the earlier stages of a game can be used by themselves, but in the later parts of the game they will need to be used in combination with units like the corruptor or infestor

I like almost every aspect of this patch! :D

Caliban113
09-14-2012, 03:25 PM
Actually yes - Phase Shield does sound interesting - Also want to point out Im not Blizz bashing, just feel some of the more drastic changes came a little too early, and feel somewhat random to me - I mean, hardened shield reduces haywire damage and warhound is cut?


Hmmmm.....

Pr0nogo
09-14-2012, 03:28 PM
They might end up adding the ability to some other unit, which would still make it retarded, but whatever.

Reaper cliff vision is hilarious. Tempest is even less useful. Otherwise, some faith might well be restored. I still wouldn't count on much though.

DemolitionSquid
09-14-2012, 03:35 PM
So fucking sad.

Step 1: Insert Carrier.
Step 2: Remove Warhound.
Step 3: Rename game to Wings Of Liberty 2.0
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit!

And wtf is up with having both Buggy and Battle Hellion modes build-able? Is the ONE SECOND transform time seriously too fucking inconvenient? Why don't we let Vikings be built in ground or air mode? Or fucking tanks built right in their more valuable siege mode? Oh yeah, that's right... we don't because its FUCKING STUPID.

Pr0nogo
09-14-2012, 03:41 PM
Now you have to research the transformation ability. Because, you know, letting you build them in either form isn't enough.

RamiZ
09-14-2012, 03:55 PM
So fucking sad.

Step 1: Insert Carrier.
Step 2: Remove Warhound.
Step 3: Rename game to Wings Of Liberty 2.0
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit!

And wtf is up with having both Buggy and Battle Hellion modes build-able? Is the ONE SECOND transform time seriously too fucking inconvenient? Why don't we let Vikings be built in ground or air mode? Or fucking tanks built right in their more valuable siege mode? Oh yeah, that's right... we don't because its FUCKING STUPID.

Yeah, Demo, Protoss got one of their old units back, while Terran temporarily lost the Warhound because they want to redesign it, and HotS is already WoL 2.0! Not...

Tempests are different than before, they aren't less useful, they will be used as Siege Units that deals with massive units like Colossi, Brood Lords, Ultras and others. They still deal 30 damage, but now +20 vs. massive which is actually pretty huge.

Also, being able to build Battle Hellions from Factory won't certainly break things, nor is stupid, because unlike other transformations, if Lings/Zealots are in your base, your Hellions will be useless when they pop-up. And, not it wasn't 1 second transform time, it was about 3-4 seconds long, which is pretty big.

The_Blade
09-14-2012, 03:57 PM
I feel this update came too soon. I have no other comment on it.

TheEconomist
09-14-2012, 04:00 PM
So fucking sad.

Step 1: Insert Carrier.
Step 2: Remove Warhound.
Step 3: Rename game to Wings Of Liberty 2.0
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit!

And wtf is up with having both Buggy and Battle Hellion modes build-able? Is the ONE SECOND transform time seriously too fucking inconvenient? Why don't we let Vikings be built in ground or air mode? Or fucking tanks built right in their more valuable siege mode? Oh yeah, that's right... we don't because its FUCKING STUPID.

tl;dr take away: experimentation is bad!

Visions of Khas
09-14-2012, 04:03 PM
If I were in Beta I'd think this update would be pretty exciting. I had no idea the Mothership had Purify again. I'm really glad the Warhound is going to be reworked.

I think Blizz is complicating things too much with the extra three units per race. Just add one or two, a few new upgrades and spells for existing units, and enjoy.

DemolitionSquid
09-14-2012, 04:06 PM
Yeah, Demo, Protoss got one of their old units back, while Terran temporarily lost the Warhound because they want to redesign it, and HotS is already WoL 2.0! Not...

Tempests are different than before, they aren't less useful, they will be used as Siege Units that deals with massive units like Colossi, Brood Lords, Ultras and others. They still deal 30 damage, but now +20 vs. massive which is actually pretty huge.

The Dread Lord Cthulhu forbid I not be allowed to use Colbert-grade exaggeration and sarcasm >_<

Fuck anyone who petitioned for the Carrier to return. It is a terrible, broken unit that has no place in competitive e-sports.

Visions of Khas
09-14-2012, 04:08 PM
The Dread Lord Cthulhu forbid I not be allowed to use Colbert-grade exaggeration and sarcasm >_<

Double-negative. Sooo... you can go Colbert on us.

I never thought the Carrier was broken; how's it broken?

Quirel
09-14-2012, 04:15 PM
Double-negative. Sooo... you can go Colbert on us.

I never thought the Carrier was broken; how's it broken?
I hope you realize what you've unleashed with that single query.

TheProgramer
09-14-2012, 04:24 PM
BLIZZ LISTENED! Gotta have my carrier.

DemolitionSquid
09-14-2012, 04:25 PM
Double-negative. Sooo... you can go Colbert on us.

I never thought the Carrier was broken; how's it broken?

With no Interceptors the Carrier is severely underpowered because it cannot attack at all. The Carrier can thus only be balanced with Interceptors. However, the Carrier can be only be balanced at a set number of Interceptors. If the Carrier is balanced at 4 Interceptors, then it cannot be balanced at 5, or 2, or 8. A Carrier is constantly in power fluxuation. It has a variable power level thanks to its Interceptors constantly dying and being rebuilt. If we expand on this, an army of Carriers grows more variable in power level as more Carriers are added with varying numbers of Interceptors. However, when more Carriers are made, less Interceptors tend to die because the DPS output of a Carrier army is so high. This shows that either the Carrier is balanced at 8 Interceptors, or overpowered at 8 Interceptors. Either way, the unit becomes unbalanced when Interceptors eventually do die. The unit cannot be balanced by virtue of math, thus it is inherently broken by base design.

RamiZ
09-14-2012, 04:28 PM
The Dread Lord Cthulhu forbid I not be allowed to use Colbert-grade exaggeration and sarcasm >_<

Fuck anyone who petitioned for the Carrier to return. It is a terrible, broken unit that has no place in competitive e-sports.
I don't have opinion about the Carrier, I mean, it is iconic SC1 unit, but I couldn't care less if I didn't see them in SC2. Thing is, 90% of the players(and not just Protoss players...) petitioned about the Carrier not being in the beta.

Visions of Khas
09-14-2012, 04:31 PM
I hope you realize what you've unleashed with that single query.

I'm counting on it. :D

That's a very good summary, DSquid, and hadn't thought of it that way. At the same time this is why I love the carrier; because of that power flux. But I'm no pro-level gamer, sooo...

Caliban113
09-14-2012, 04:42 PM
Do interceptors still cost resources? - I dont build them (even when playing toss) so I never looked

Also, are they affected by fungal? - if you were to catch a wave of them in a bunch, 1 fungal should actually kill them, no? - obviously wont stop the carriers, but it would hurt their dps for a bit while you took the Carriers out

Anyway, not a Carrier fan, but am not seeing this Carrier/Tempest dynamic working out the way they think.

Still early enough in the beta where maybe I can turn off the panic button - will definitely be watching some games after this hits.....

The_Blade
09-14-2012, 06:02 PM
With no Interceptors the Carrier is severely underpowered because it cannot attack at all. The Carrier can thus only be balanced with Interceptors. However, the Carrier can be only be balanced at a set number of Interceptors. If the Carrier is balanced at 4 Interceptors, then it cannot be balanced at 5, or 2, or 8. A Carrier is constantly in power fluxuation. It has a variable power level thanks to its Interceptors constantly dying and being rebuilt. If we expand on this, an army of Carriers grows more variable in power level as more Carriers are added with varying numbers of Interceptors. However, when more Carriers are made, less Interceptors tend to die because the DPS output of a Carrier army is so high. This shows that either the Carrier is balanced at 8 Interceptors, or overpowered at 8 Interceptors. Either way, the unit becomes unbalanced when Interceptors eventually do die. The unit cannot be balanced by virtue of math, thus it is inherently broken by base design.

THIS

Basically, I just believe Blizzard stepped back with this patch. Regardless of the "good" features, this patch takes HotS back to the alpha stage. If they did this in WoL we would have seen roaches being removed during the live beta.

With the Warhound removed, TvT and TvP go back to their WoL counterparts. Yey Blizzard, now Terran is also as stale as Protoss in HotS.

Skyze
09-14-2012, 07:53 PM
So fucking sad.

Step 1: Insert Carrier.
Step 2: Remove Warhound.
Step 3: Rename game to Wings Of Liberty 2.0
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit!

And wtf is up with having both Buggy and Battle Hellion modes build-able? Is the ONE SECOND transform time seriously too fucking inconvenient? Why don't we let Vikings be built in ground or air mode? Or fucking tanks built right in their more valuable siege mode? Oh yeah, that's right... we don't because its FUCKING STUPID.

I think it does make a big deal actually; imagine a zerg broke into the base just as the hellion is about to finish; If it is in hellion mode, it can chase them fast and save the scvs, but if its in battlemode, you lose 3-4 extra scvs in BH walk time. Also, if you have a specific timing rush with 2 reactor hellions popping out to cross the map with your marines, its more convinent than having it in BH mode, then having to transform then rally.

Alternately, if roaches are breaching the factory, built in BH mode would survive more hits right out, but hellion mode would mean GG.

I love that it has the option to come out as either, according to your situation.

Skyze
09-14-2012, 07:59 PM
With no Interceptors the Carrier is severely underpowered because it cannot attack at all. The Carrier can thus only be balanced with Interceptors. However, the Carrier can be only be balanced at a set number of Interceptors. If the Carrier is balanced at 4 Interceptors, then it cannot be balanced at 5, or 2, or 8. A Carrier is constantly in power fluxuation. It has a variable power level thanks to its Interceptors constantly dying and being rebuilt. If we expand on this, an army of Carriers grows more variable in power level as more Carriers are added with varying numbers of Interceptors. However, when more Carriers are made, less Interceptors tend to die because the DPS output of a Carrier army is so high. This shows that either the Carrier is balanced at 8 Interceptors, or overpowered at 8 Interceptors. Either way, the unit becomes unbalanced when Interceptors eventually do die. The unit cannot be balanced by virtue of math, thus it is inherently broken by base design.

I'll disagree again. Carriers were great how they were in BW. Keep in mind, a fast-firing DPS unit like Marines kill interceptors fast; therefor you can have a low-tech option for making the carriers useless. Thats good, as vikings/thors fire too slow to deal with interceptors. The ultimate solution to stopping carriers is Marine/viking (marine pick off INTs and viking target fire carrier) and Hydra/corruptor (same thing) - yet the problem with SC2 carriers is how bad the interceptor pathing/functioning is.

In brood war, the interceptors would hit a target fast and hard, and if you pulled back they regroup inside, so your next target fire was a burst hit of damage also. In SC2, when you pull back your carriers, the interceptors act like idiots and target random objects, resulting in the loss of your interceptors (where in BW it saves as much as it can) - this is what made Carrier vs Goliath battles in BW so special. If you are caught out of position, obviously goliaths own you. But if you are strong with carrier micro, you can take out lots of goliaths with target-firing. That'd never happen with SC2 carriers due to the pathing of interceptors.

Once they fix that, Carriers will be the fearful units they were in BW. Oh, and fungal owning all interceptors at once is BS lol

Noctis
09-14-2012, 08:24 PM
Carrier has arrived.


:D

DemolitionSquid
09-14-2012, 09:29 PM
I'll disagree again. Carriers were great how they were in BW. Keep in mind, a fast-firing DPS unit like Marines kill interceptors fast; therefor you can have a low-tech option for making the carriers useless. Thats good, as vikings/thors fire too slow to deal with interceptors. The ultimate solution to stopping carriers is Marine/viking (marine pick off INTs and viking target fire carrier) and Hydra/corruptor (same thing) - yet the problem with SC2 carriers is how bad the interceptor pathing/functioning is.

In brood war, the interceptors would hit a target fast and hard, and if you pulled back they regroup inside, so your next target fire was a burst hit of damage also. In SC2, when you pull back your carriers, the interceptors act like idiots and target random objects, resulting in the loss of your interceptors (where in BW it saves as much as it can) - this is what made Carrier vs Goliath battles in BW so special. If you are caught out of position, obviously goliaths own you. But if you are strong with carrier micro, you can take out lots of goliaths with target-firing. That'd never happen with SC2 carriers due to the pathing of interceptors.

Once they fix that, Carriers will be the fearful units they were in BW. Oh, and fungal owning all interceptors at once is BS lol

You're completely missing the point. You can't argue with math. Regardless of how good or bad the unit is, its fundamentally broken and cannot acctually be balanced as long as it can have varying levels of Interceptors.

Fact is, anything with varying levels of power cannot truly be balanced. Siege Tank splash is not balanced. Templar Storm is not balanced. Even non-damaging abilities like Sentry Guardian Shield are not balanced. Every single application of these multi-target abilities yields a different calculated result. They are, however, more balanced than the Carrier.

This is because their base statistics are in less flux. Storm will always do 80 damage over 4 seconds to anything under it. Guardian Shield will always reduce all damage by 2 to any allied unit in range 4. What these things have in common is their average effectiveness is determined by player skill. More skilled players will achieve greater results with the abilities than lesser players. What we achieve is an average at each skill level. This is what we consider "balance." The better a player becomes, the closer they approach 100% effectiveness in a unit or ability's use. Balance is derived from the ability of one player to maximize the effectiveness of a unit or ability, versus another players' ability to counter or minimize said effectiveness. So Siege Tank splash and Storm are "balanced" because at each skill level, players are able to use and counter these abilities at relatively equal effectiveness.

That is not the situation with the Carrier, however. The Carrier fluctuates between 0 and 8 Interceptors. This is almost completely independent of player skill. A player can tell a Carrier what to attack, but unlike a Siege Tank or Storm, its base power will vary between 0 and 8 Interceptors. As Interceptors die, and are replaced, the power of the unit fluctuates at an extra level than other variable power units or abilities. This is because Carriers are unit factories themselves.

Say you have a Barracks pumping out Marines continuously. You engage a Hatchery making Zerglings continuously. For arguments sake, imagine everything is balanced to lead to a stalemate situation. Sometimes the Zerglings get the upper hand, sometimes the Marines. Whats important is that you can clearly calculate the average damage output and HP of each side reasonably well. We can calculate a standard production rate for each side to maintain stalemate. This is true balance.

Now, take a Factory making Siege Tanks. They move to a line then siege up. They face a Lair making Hydralisks. Set the stalemate. The splash of the Tanks will overlap and kill the clumped Hydralisks in static numbers of damage and area of effect. Any extra damage from overlapped Tank shots is wasted, and because of smart-shot some tanks may never fire at all. When the Hydralisks eventually kill off a Tank, either a) they'll make no dent in the AoE damage output of the Tank line, b) there won't be enough Tanks and they'll overrun the line, or c) they'll be spread out enough now from pockets of dying Hydras to AoE that subsequent Tank splash will be wasted. Its inherently unstable, but eventually we can find a decent spawn rate for both sides of units to create a fake "balance" with minor fluctuation.

Finally, take a Stargate making Carriers, and a Hive making Corruptors. The Carriers themselves are constantly producing Interceptors. What you've essentially done is diversified your army composition. You have Carriers with lots of HP but cannot attack, and Interceptors with lower HP doing all the damage. This is where the problem arises. Sometimes the Corruptors will pick off individual Interceptors, decreasing the damage output and HP of your Carriers by a calculable, average margin. But sometimes the Corruptors will kill a Carrier. This act may also cause the death of between 0 and 8 Interceptors. Suddenly the Corruptors have tipped the scale of the battle in a completely new, unpredictable fashion. In the Tank versus Hydra scenario, it was the Hydras suffering mass simultaneous casualties. But it was a fairly static number because we knew the power and area of each Tank shot. In this situation, its the Interceptors dying en mass, but at completely random intervals, and completely random numbers. Because of this, we will never achieve a state of balance even close to whats possible with other variable power units or abilities, like the Siege Tank splash damage.

Alex06
09-16-2012, 11:46 AM
+1 for DemoSquid. I can't help but agree with what he says.

Pr0nogo
09-16-2012, 03:50 PM
It's not really a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact. You can have your opinion of the fact (e.g. 'that's stupid' or 'that's good'), but you can't deny the fact itself. It doesn't work that way.

DemolitionSquid
09-16-2012, 04:08 PM
It's not really a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact. You can have your opinion of the fact (e.g. 'that's stupid' or 'that's good'), but you can't deny the fact itself. It doesn't work that way.

Whom or what are you responding to, exactly? :confused:

Pr0nogo
09-16-2012, 04:47 PM
I'm just stating the obvious, really. Most of what you said about the Carrier has been fact, and nobody can dispute the math side of the balance.

TheEconomist
09-16-2012, 04:58 PM
Alex06 was agreeing that that fact was what was the balance problem.

(Awkward ass sentence.)

Jconant
09-16-2012, 09:36 PM
It seems now as how things are, protoss just hasn't gotten much that really changes the dynamic of their army composition or tactics for mid to late game.

Granted, mothership core and oracle are great additions, but are they enough to compensate for the the weakness of gateway units until you pump out high tech units?

Carsickness
09-16-2012, 10:49 PM
I welcome these changes alot. Especially since I'm a toss player :D. That includes the return of the carrier as well. Having two units that require the fleet beacon is nice, and allows the ability to adapt should one unit composition fail. Making air toss more viable.
I do agree with d-squid about the balance issues, but it was still a fun unit to use, even if it sucked.
Anyways, I'm actually excited to play HoTS now!

Speaking of units with varying levels of balance; do you guys remember that surfing Protoss unit from way back? It would get stronger the more units it killed. Lol, man that unit was horrible :p

Alar
09-17-2012, 12:54 AM
If they just made Interceptors invulnerable or incapable of receiving fire, that would solve a lot of problems, wouldn't it? Carriers would still have to build up to a full eight, but then they could stop worrying about losing them. Blizzard could even increase the cost of the Interceptors of they think it needed to be balanced.

Twilice
09-17-2012, 07:52 AM
Agreed, interceptors are a big part of why carriers doesn't work. In some siege fights you just see your minerals melting away because no apparent reason. Only to realize you've lost 400 minerals to just dead interceptors.

flak4321
09-17-2012, 10:23 AM
As a mathematician, I agree with DSquid's reasoning. I do however have to add the late tech positioning of the carrier, the rate at which the interceptors come and go (both build time and volley frequency), and the base cost of the carrier, all of which make carriers difficult to get and/or use.

The rate at which the interceptors leave the carrier (volley frequency) is slower than in BW. In bw, you'd get 3 volleys in about 4 seconds before he interceptors return to the carrier. That same time frame will only get you at most 2 volleys in SC2 because they now return to the carrier after every volley, thus reducing overall dps dramatically.

If the overall intent of carrier balance is assumed to be at 8 interceptors, then the unit is relatively balanced. This is reinforced by how much more quickly interceptors remake in SC2. The remake speed is very dependent on player skill, most notably the ability to pay attention. Good players will never let their carriers have less than 6 interceptors each (unless they are harassing vs massing), thus also minimizing the flux at high levels. Even at low levels, carriers are used very little and are typically massed to 6 or 8 carriers when they are, and even low level players know to keep an eye on interceptor levels, so the flux is not as apparent as one might mathemarically think.

In truth, the carrier is indeed mathematically broken. However, if the player using them has the skill and econ to maintain interceptor numbers, the issue can be effectively masked. There is one exception.

Carriers vs terran Siege lines - aka the big no-no! With blink, collos and immortals, why the heck would someone consider carriers vs siege lines? Availble tech buildings. SOmetimes your stuck. But if you have air only, why attack the siege line when you can go around? And that's the no-no friends!

flak4321
09-17-2012, 10:30 AM
In a separate note on the tempest: this is now just a bigger, slower, stronger void ray. I see it taking most of the void ray's harass usage that the oracle does not fill. I also seeing it being used vs. siege lines instead of the carrier or void ray owing to range (even reduced).

DemolitionSquid
09-17-2012, 11:53 AM
The only solution to fixing the Carrier is as Alar said: to make the Interceptors invulnerable. To make the Carrier like every other unit. To make Interceptors simply the visual for the Carrier's regular attack. We could make Carriers start with 4 Interceptors, then give the Fleet Beacon an "Interceptor Capacity" upgrade to give them 8 which would just double the Carrier's damage.

DemolitionSquid
09-27-2012, 01:05 PM
Who are these people who continually petition the Carrier back into the game?

Broodwar players who are suffering from extremely nonsensical nostalgia.

Pr0nogo
09-27-2012, 02:28 PM
It's a bot.

Caliban113
09-27-2012, 07:13 PM
Scary how often these bots choose my posts to randomly quote....

Noctis
09-27-2012, 10:32 PM
Broodwar players who are suffering from extremely nonsensical nostalgia.

the carrier is a stereotype of protoss, make the unit work instead of just taking it out of the game. I dont see blizz doing that to the battlecruiser, there have been numerous suggestions on this site alone i think blizz can come up with something if they put their minds to it -_-

DemolitionSquid
09-27-2012, 10:45 PM
the carrier is a stereotype of protoss, make the unit work instead of just taking it out of the game. I dont see blizz doing that to the battlecruiser, there have been numerous suggestions on this site alone i think blizz can come up with something if they put their minds to it -_-

The Battle Cruiser is not fundamentally (mechanically) broken in any way. The Carrier is. It cannot be fixed unless the life-tether between it and its Interceptors is removed. Blizzard defiantly refuses to change it, and thus its better to support just getting rid of it.