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The_Blade
09-04-2012, 11:32 PM
Welcome to the StarCraft II beta!

In this thread we will share the latest meta-game for HotS. This includes: build orders, timings, strategies, matchups, and anything gameplay related.

As you join the beta, post your feedback here on your current meta-game for any of the three races. Share replays and videos too.

If you are not in the beta you may contribute to the topic through your own end of the experience. Share ideas you found in streams or do some pure theorycrafting.

DarthYam
09-04-2012, 11:42 PM
any idea how long it lasts? and when will heart of the swarm the final be released?

The_Blade
09-04-2012, 11:52 PM
Blizzard has stated in the past interviews that they wanted to host a closed beta for a couple of months. No new statements have been made.

Husky has added some videos of their first impressions on each race:

QVcHTX1M-H8

xD0spOE-Uws

okio0kGkAyo

Alex06
09-05-2012, 09:19 AM
any idea how long it lasts? and when will heart of the swarm the final be released?
3 to 6 months, they said, leaning on the shorter side, hopefully. That is, I believe, their exact words.

DarthYam
09-05-2012, 01:13 PM
So that means it will be between December and March. Do you know when plot details will start becoming apparent or is that not covered in the beta. and finally, how long after the beta will the game actually be released, because Legacy of the Void coming out in 2016 would kind of suck.

Shadow Archon
09-05-2012, 01:25 PM
Protoss Space Platforms!!!!!!!!!

Okay, finally we see them!

That just made my day. :D

Skyze
09-05-2012, 02:59 PM
So that means it will be between December and March. Do you know when plot details will start becoming apparent or is that not covered in the beta. and finally, how long after the beta will the game actually be released, because Legacy of the Void coming out in 2016 would kind of suck.

No plot details from beta except extracting the skins from planets and stuff to make assumptions on the plot, but beta is just online multiplayer.

Generally (I've been in every beta since broodwar, except d3) beta ends and the game takes a month to three months to release. They get the box and etc ready during beta generally, it'sjust getting a stable version to print the CDs on for shipping.

The_Blade
09-05-2012, 03:38 PM
Here are three of the first serious HotS games.

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ttOFyLPt8dU

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SpikeVorador
09-06-2012, 02:44 PM
mass warhounds is the current metagame for Terran apparently xD

The_Blade
09-06-2012, 04:30 PM
Protoss players seem to have problems having ground superiority. Zerg and Terrans are having a much easier time creating massive deathballs.

Skyze
09-06-2012, 06:19 PM
Protoss players seem to have problems having ground superiority. Zerg and Terrans are having a much easier time creating massive deathballs.

I've seen some stability in Protoss groud armies.. Its just a completely different composition than WoL; a lot more immortal heavy mixes vs warhounds. Vs zerg, its tough but need to mix in more archons to deal with the locusts, but I've seen it work.

I think warhounds need a bit of work, but I like them so far kind of. I was really hoping they would specifically be used for countering mechanical units; such as being able to deal with tank lines and great vs stalkers, and weak vs things like zealots and marine/marauder.. Right now, they seem like a great all-around unit with added strength vs mechanical. Tone them down abit, maybe a bit longer range vs tanks even at the cost of some of their normal damage?

The_Blade
09-06-2012, 06:44 PM
I've seen day[9] working with mass Archons and Zealots to deal with Roach and Swarm Hosts.

Here's an example of what I've seen from streams about Protoss not being able to handle Zerg.

aTtVFSSUTIs

Archons are great supply effective units, but they are expensive. Day[9] used Zealots as meatshields for Archons, but I don't see how attacking upgraded locusts. I don't believe there's a "correct" way to fight locusts. Ignoring them might work, but Zerg just has to cluster up his buildings. IMO locusts do too much damage, but I want to see a week of beta to see it clearly.

Skyze
09-06-2012, 08:02 PM
Yea. I think that game was close, but I see where you are coming from kinda. I think its unfortunate protoss doesnt really have much to add to the composition when talking about new units; Tempests are kind of a money sink so far IMO (slight buff may be needed IMO) but I think WhiteRa was handling it fine until he started the tempest production so heavily, lowering his ground army count.

I wish Oracles still had that cloak, would of been great to add in to a mid-game army or two split for hatchery sniping or such.

The_Blade
09-06-2012, 09:08 PM
Alright people, I'm currently within the Beta. Any requests on what you might want to see? Zerg, Protoss or Terran? I'll film myself doing horrible against the pros if you want to :P

Gifted
09-06-2012, 11:19 PM
Tomorrow morning at 9am cst I'll be streaming HOTS with my usual approach for communicating with the audience and typically trying out their ideas. See ya on www.twitch.tv/legacyobserver if interested

DemolitionSquid
09-07-2012, 12:24 AM
I'd like to see an analysis of the Viper's Abduct. How it functions with various terrain levels, over gaps, and onto doodads (like destructible rocks). Finding clipping or pathing bugs to exploit would be interesting.

Also, anyone know of any really good stream/vods other than Day9? Some dApollo would be great, he's always on the ball. I can't stand Husky, TotalBiscuit, and Crota - their voices are SO bad for casting (sorry Crota :() and do terrible, terrible damage to my ears. I don't mind Tastetosis 'cause Dan acctually has an idea of what he's talking about, but Nick just parrots him and its pretty sad.

Alar
09-07-2012, 01:12 AM
I really loved Husky's videos. They got me excited with him. What a great guy.

Gifted
09-07-2012, 05:02 AM
So, first night in the beta was odd.

Notable people played:
ForGG
SKTRain
GimbleB

Also played against two press invididuals that worked for Finnish and Italian fansites.

It was a fun night :) And so far, Medivac/Hellion/Marine/SCV

Discuss...

DemolitionSquid
09-07-2012, 10:34 PM
Can someone confirm if the Battle Cruiser speed boost ability was left in or not? I'd like to see the stats on if it was (energy cost/cooldown, duration, speed increase).

The_Blade
09-08-2012, 12:10 AM
It is out. I guess that made them op.

DemolitionSquid
09-08-2012, 10:22 AM
It is out. I guess that made them op.

I seriously doubt that. There's no way that making BC's slightly faster would make them broken. All it would do is help them get in and out of battle faster, especially if Blizzard was smart enough to turn off their weapons while they were boosted. Of course, this is Blizzard we're talking about, an idea so simple and obvious would never cross their mind.

The_Blade
09-08-2012, 11:04 AM
That's the main problem, BCs shouldn't be able to handle a battle on thier own without support. This "boost" allowed them to reach targets faster and "micro" against enemy vikings and other fast units (specially because BC's fire while moving). When I spot mass BC's, I split my army in three and destroy his expos. If he goes for base trade, then we do the base trade. Some players will want to D and because the BCs are slow, they won't do very good. I will lose a third of my army and will replace it with heavy anti BC forces.

Without the upgrade you can handle critical mass BCs with vikings, with it you can't.

DemolitionSquid
09-08-2012, 11:09 AM
That's the main problem, BCs shouldn't be able to handle a battle on thier own without support. This "boost" allowed them to reach targets faster and "micro" against enemy vikings and other fast units (specially because BC's fire while moving). When I spot mass BC's, I split my army in three and destroy his expos. If he goes for base trade, then we do the base trade. Some players will want to D and because the BCs are slow, they won't do very good. I will lose a third of my army and will replace it with heavy anti BC forces.

Without the upgrade you can handle critical mass BCs with vikings, with it you can't.

I'd like to reiterate my point about disabling their weapons while the boost is active. I envisioned the boost as more a way for BC's to stay in pace with the rest of their much faster army, than to head out on their own. If the ability was like a "power transfer" from weapons to engines and back again, with a slight delay in transition from speed to normal modes, it would produce good surprise attack options for the enemy to take advantage of. This would help create more exciting games.

The_Blade
09-08-2012, 11:13 AM
I have to agree there. I guess Vikings would still be safe from BCs overwhelming firepower, but BCs would gain a lever on basetrade and D. I just don't know if that would make them OP, but it would seriously give them an advantage over their current movility issues.

Shadow Archon
09-09-2012, 01:06 AM
So, is any factions' build order different at all for HotS?

What do you all think about the fact that workers automatically disperse to mine now?

The_Blade
09-09-2012, 12:29 PM
Terrans have shifted entirely into mech with air support in any match up. Bio is viable in only some cases.

Zerg love Swarm Hosts and hive tech transitions intro broodlord corruptor muta.

Protoss is basically the same. They have attempted to adapt towards a more air superiority play (due to the new units). Protoss death balls now contain more voidrays, but they still use colossus vs Zerg and Protoss. Immortals can stop up to 4 warhounds with support, but can't stand against larger numbers and being cost effective.

DemolitionSquid
09-09-2012, 12:38 PM
So, is any factions' build order different at all for HotS?

What do you all think about the fact that workers automatically disperse to mine now?

1. Since there are multiple build orders per race anyway, your question is kind of awkward. However, I assume you were referring to opening/early game plays, in which case the answer is still clearly "yes." Specifically, Terran and Protoss both have new, viable opening build options thanks to Reaper Combat Drugs and the Mothership Core.

2. I like the automine. Game-start working splitting is overvalued as a "skill."

RamiZ
09-09-2012, 05:25 PM
Terrans have shifted entirely into mech with air support in any match up. Bio is viable in only some cases.

Zerg love Swarm Hosts and hive tech transitions intro broodlord corruptor muta.

Protoss is basically the same. They have attempted to adapt towards a more air superiority play (due to the new units). Protoss death balls now contain more voidrays, but they still use colossus vs Zerg and Protoss. Immortals can stop up to 4 warhounds with support, but can't stand against larger numbers and being cost effective.
I am pretty sure that Bio is just as viable as before, and bio-mech play is even better with combination of Marines + Warhounds, Marauders + Marines + Battle Hellions, Marines + Battle Hellions + Banshees. There is a lot of unit combinations in Terran arsenal right now, I love it(and I am an Zerg player).

I feel like that mech isn't really superior, but with addition of Mines, Warhounds and Battle Hellions, people are just overusing mech to try the new stuff, or just because they were basically forced to play the bio or bio-mech for whole expansion.

I am really happy with the Zerg because we can do some pushes and attacks at Lair tech, I don't have to rush for Hive! YEY! Again, tons of possibilities, Roaches + Vipers + Corruptors, Mutas + Zerglings + Swarm Hosts, Swarm Hosts + Infestors, Roaches + Hydralisks + Swarm Hosts, everything is awesome and can do some serious damage. And Brood Lords + Corruptors + Infestors definitely isn't the strongest composition in the game anymore.

Also, Battle Cruisers have buffed ground attack from 8 to 10, and Yamato Cannon got energy reduced from 150 to 100. Blizzard said that they wanted to introduce that new ability for BC that gives them speed, but they felt like it would contradict what the Capital Ship is all about. BC is slow unit, with high dps, good ability and very high HP. If you give them good mobility, you have to reduce some of the stats to compensate for that, so they felt like that it is better to buff their damage a little so they can be better at fight, than getting faster in fight or out of fight.

Twilice
09-11-2012, 09:25 PM
So how much of the zerg metagame (vs all matchup) has changed now with the swarm host added?

DemolitionSquid
09-11-2012, 09:55 PM
So how much of the zerg metagame (vs all matchup) has changed now with the swarm host added?

I'll say this: LiquidSheth has a completely bullshit 1 base Swarm Host rush versus Protoss. He pumps out Swarm Hosts and Queens and makes like 2 Overseers. The Swarm Hosts burrow at the front of the Protoss base, and the Protoss can't see them to attack without Observers. Except the Queens kill any Observers instantly thanks to the Overseers, and heal any damaged Swarm Hosts. You have to go Stargate, and get an Oracle to use Revelation from safety. It's bloody inconvenient if you'd prefer to go gateway/robo play.

Raif
09-12-2012, 04:31 AM
I'll say this: LiquidSheth has a completely bullshit 1 base Swarm Host rush versus Protoss.
It is not every day I see Sheth named in the same sentence as bullshit :)

I think we are going to see a lot of patching of the Swarm Host/Locust throughout the beta.
I have seen a lot of people using it for attacking, how does it feel/work as a defending unit vs drops/harassment?

RamiZ
09-12-2012, 01:30 PM
It is not every day I see Sheth named in the same sentence as bullshit :)

I think we are going to see a lot of patching of the Swarm Host/Locust throughout the beta.
I have seen a lot of people using it for attacking, how does it feel/work as a defending unit vs drops/harassment?
It is great for defense from pushes, but not so good for defending the drops, since the unit itself isn't very fast, nor are the Locusts. Good player would never let those Locusts connect with their harass squad, otherwise, 2-3 Swarm Hosts(4-6 Locusts) are pretty much enough to defend from almost any kind of drop, if we talk about just small harassment like 1 Medivac, or Warp Prism.

Anyway, the Zerg has changed quite a lot and I love it! You don't have to rush 3 bases to be on par with other races, you don't have to(nor you can) go 6 Queen opening vs. Terran every game, and you certainly don't need to rush Brood Lord + Infestor every game to be able to win without being all-in.

There are a tons of possibilities with just Swarm Hosts, Vipers and new upgrades for old units. Going first for Roaches and Lings, then transition into Swarm Hosts, backed up with few Infestors and Corruptors to defend from Air attacks.
Roach and Hydras, with few Swarm Hosts and getting to Hive to get the Hydra speed and Vipers.
Mutas and Lings, transitioned into Swarm Hosts and Vipers(new units go extremely well together).
Mass Roach play vs. mech, but now you don't have to go for the drops, or rush to the Brood Lords and Infestors. You basically work with Roaches and keep stopping their economy to grow, attacking at few places at once, while rushing to the Vipers. And then, you can go pure Vipers and Roaches, with addition of Corrutpors if they went for Banshees/Vikings/Ravens. Vipers completely wreck the mech army. Thors and Tanks are slow, and can't escape the Blinding Cloud easily and Abduct is pulling everything out of position, so instead of keep trading bunch of Roaches for few units, you trade few Roaches for few Siege Tanks/Thors. It is absolutely amazing.

I feel that Terran also have a ton of new options, and Protoss players still didn't get used to new units and abilities. We will see a lot of changing definitely, Blizzard even said it themselves in the Forum Post that within next few days they are going to take a look at the Warhound, Oracle and whole Protoss army, and there will be changes that might even be design changes.

EDIT:
Vipers and Roches, something like this...

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Twilice
09-12-2012, 07:55 PM
Can phoenix lift burrowed swarm hosts?

DemolitionSquid
09-12-2012, 07:59 PM
Can phoenix lift burrowed swarm hosts?

Phoenix can lift any non-massive ground unit, burrowed or not.

Twilice
09-12-2012, 08:31 PM
It will be interesting to see if phoenix will be seeing more play because of swarm host.

The_Blade
09-12-2012, 08:52 PM
I saw Fenix used well vs a early and mid game warhound/marine armies. Instead of using voidrays he just denied all the dps 7-8 warhounds produced and had a zealot, immortal and stalker unit composition.

The_Blade
09-14-2012, 08:19 PM
No warhound has the meta game confused :P Some people went down to mass widow mine drops. I'll be sure on recording that. And by "some people" I mean myself.

and :D

http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2001&stc=1&d=1347912249

DemolitionSquid
09-14-2012, 09:54 PM
I was considering Widow Mines filling the gap of the Warhound.

Widow Mine
Cost:75/25
Attack: 160, 35 splash.

These are the Protoss units the Warhound was in combat with:

Zealot
Cost: 100/0
HP/SP: 150, 1 Armor

Stalker
Cost: 125/50
HP/SP: 160, 1 Armor

Immortal
Cost: 250/100
HP/SP: 300, 1 Armor

Archon
Cost: 50/150 or 125/125
HP/SP: 360

Colossus
Cost: 300/200
HP/SP: 350, 1 Armor

Theoretically, Widow Mines are relatively cost effective versus Stalkers, Immortals, and Colossi when supported by any unit who can quickly do that extra bit of damage to their Armor, like Marines. These are also the units the Warhound's Haywire Missile attacked. I feel there may be viability here somewhere. The obvious catch is the Widow Mine's 4 second burrow time, and subsequent immobility.

The_Blade
09-14-2012, 10:11 PM
Here's something funny. Opening with the classic 1:1:1 you can spam marines, widow mines, vikings and dropships. A simultanious drop on the main and in the expand will kill almost every worker instantly. Widow mines no longer destroy themselves, so it's much easier to do. You have to burrow one by one for effective damage. OR Doing a spread-out drop will do the trick and you can burrow them all at once. This will ensure they all target different stuff. Then, he rages and tries to go for your base, but your own mines will kill him out. A serious army may then squish their remnants.

Mass widow mine is effective, but you can't kill his army without lossing your own. It's still hilarious, though.

Got a love GM, win = +2 points : lose = -25 points. Then, I remembered i could go unranked.

Noctis
09-15-2012, 10:53 PM
I feel like most protoss will end up attempting to go for some kind of air superiority in games. Either phoenix for utility/harass/dps, VR's for possibly hard counter, Tempests as siege units, and carriers for late game dominance. however, unless they're going straight mass carrier all the air units will be mixed in with a ground army. so you may have like a squad of 5 phoenix patrolling as harass with an oracle with an option to create VR's, and if they chose to go fleet beacon 2-3 tempests with the ground army to siege and/ora medium amount of carriers to be the rapid dps.

The_Blade
09-16-2012, 11:46 PM
Protoss needs the Maelstrom spell back. I believe it would help vs the whole Zerg Swarm Host scam right now. With the proper restrictions it could work well and be balanced. The only efficent way I've found of dealing with Swarm Hosts is 5 Tempests "snipers" or the Mothership's vortex spell. It is much harder to snipe with tempests now, as of patch 2. Carriers have their damage denied by Hydras and Tempests by Corruptors. Moving Swarm Hosts to hive tech and vipers to lair is always an option too ^^

Here's some reaper fun vs Zerg:

zSHtF_tUEQI

DemolitionSquid
09-17-2012, 12:00 PM
I've always advocated giving the Archon an ability. It already has an anti-bio attack, but giving it back Maelstrom could work. However, I'd prefer something new, like an ability for the Archon to transfer its shields to another unit. Imagine an Immortal with its shields sustained by an Archon :D

Sarov
09-17-2012, 03:47 PM
Imagine an Immortal with its shields sustained by an Archon :D

In the WoL beta, I once imagined what it would be like if Immortal were near a shield battery. "UNLIMITED POWAH!"

Although that would be awesome too. :D