PDA

View Full Version : Heart of the Swarm Sept 2012 beta unit details - leaked video



Alex06
09-03-2012, 01:37 PM
This video was leaked earlier...

AgwQ_LRpi1g

I spot some really interesting changes, and I love the new Widow Mine (as expected, a modified Shredder) and Mothership Core designs. Enjoy, guys! :D

Noctis
09-03-2012, 02:15 PM
if the change list that got leaked as well is true then the oracle, MS core, and tempest became incredibly dumb(er).

Alex06
09-03-2012, 02:17 PM
Screenshots:
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1838476525

Tempest video:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDQ2NDY2NTUy.html

As we can tell from the screenies, the Queen model is not the one shown in the Battle Reports...Indicating the possibility that the Queen shown in those videos is indeed the HotS Collector's Edition Queen model, just as there was a CE Thor for WOL.

Apparently it was a map:
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1836458768?pn=1
(More screenshots inside)

It contained most of the art from HotS, but not all of it (The Hellion for example, used its WoL model while in buggy mode).

Alex06
09-04-2012, 01:30 AM
We datamined some new things, the beta client is downloadable:
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/general/general-chat/42485-leaked-heart-of-the-swarm-beta-unit-details-video/#posts

Apparently, there's a world called "Rendez Vous" and the livid Char-like tileset is Zerus! There's also art for new, yet seemingly unused Nydus Worm types, a Guardian and a Devourer...

Rake
09-04-2012, 03:25 AM
Locusts only attack ground now. Nuts. I knew air and ground attack was too good to be true.

DeltaCadimus
09-04-2012, 08:38 AM
Locusts only attack ground now. Nuts. I knew air and ground attack was too good to be true.

That's some good news. IMO, this makes countering it much more viable, plus, with air units, you have some anticipation when having to face Brood Lords.

The_Blade
09-04-2012, 08:57 AM
More videos:

NMwKrqM5mWI

Knb-ZQE7C-w

07s7UAthokw

aa7DlwKxgcU

k_J5-_YWoF0

Rm7MW4Z5nA4

DemolitionSquid
09-04-2012, 01:06 PM
Whoa. They REALLY changed how Widow Mines work.

Kostov
09-04-2012, 01:39 PM
Found something interesting, source is another forum:

http://i.imgur.com/C4A8e.png

The two upgrades of the swarm host can be seen on the bottom row.

Shadow Archon
09-04-2012, 01:46 PM
Yeah, Zerus. :)

Going back to the manual!

At least with my interpretation I'm happy with the current story. Anybody else?

Kostov
09-04-2012, 01:53 PM
Screenshots:
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1838476525

As we can tell from the screenies, the Queen model is not the one shown in the Battle Reports...Indicating the possibility that the Queen shown in those videos is indeed the HotS Collector's Edition Queen model, just as there was a CE Thor for WOL.

Apparently it was a map:
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1836458768?pn=1
(More screenshots inside)


Those two links are dead, what's that new queen model and the other stuff?

Visions of Khas
09-04-2012, 02:25 PM
Yeah, Zerus.

Going back to the manual!

At least with my interpretation I'm happy with the current story. Anybody else?

I think you're seeing something I'm not. Can you enlighten me? Where's Zerus?

RamiZ
09-04-2012, 02:32 PM
I've seen the the videos at TL, they are all great. I love the Locusts buffs and nerfs at the same time(Have 3 range, 0.8 attack speed instead of 1.2, but cannot attack air), and the Widow Mine is pure awesomeness.

I dislike what they did with the Oracle, hope its third ability get changed soon.

Quirel
09-04-2012, 02:39 PM
I think you're seeing something I'm not. Can you enlighten me? Where's Zerus?
Zerg homeworld. The place it's taken them countless millenia to get to the Korprulu sector from.

Visions of Khas
09-04-2012, 03:02 PM
I know what Zerus is. I just didn't know if a reference had been made to it somewhere; I'm wondering why Shadow Archon brought it up in the first place.

Hawki
09-04-2012, 03:04 PM
There's a picture of it on the mapmaster forums-alongside Kaldir, Korhal and Rendezvous.

Skyze
09-04-2012, 03:08 PM
Ahh beta time again.. hope I get in! Just finishing up my military training so Might actually have time to play.

Someone help me get a key and I'll provide lots of high level replays heh

TheProgramer
09-04-2012, 03:18 PM
New G4 video, not much new info here: http://www.g4tv.com/videos/60526/starcraft-2-heart-of-the-swarm-gamescom-2012-preview/

(how embed videos?)

Kostov
09-04-2012, 03:22 PM
New G4 video, not much new info here: http://www.g4tv.com/videos/60526/starcraft-2-heart-of-the-swarm-gamescom-2012-preview/

(how embed videos?)

At 1:15 he says the second upgrade of the baneling is "the raptor, which leaps forward and explodes on things". I wonder if it's a mistake or they changed some stuff...

RamiZ
09-04-2012, 03:37 PM
At 1:15 he says the second upgrade of the baneling is "the raptor, which leaps forward and explodes on things". I wonder if it's a mistake or they changed some stuff...

They have changed it, which is logical imo, leaping Zerglings weren't so great(even though they looked damn cool), because they have already very high movement speed. Banelings are slow, and aren't that fast even with upgrade, and get completely blocked by Roaches and/or Lings, so making them leap seems good(even though I don't know how will it look like)... ^^

And yes, I know it is campaign only.

Visions of Khas
09-04-2012, 03:43 PM
There's a picture of it on the mapmaster forums-alongside Kaldir, Korhal and Rendezvous.


Well what do you know.... We visit the long-lost Zerg homeworld. I've never heard of Rendezvous before, but it has an angelic quality about it...

Birthplace of the Zerg; Rendezvous' presentation... I'm thinking Kerrigan's going to be meeting the Xel'Naga. :D

Pr0nogo
09-04-2012, 03:53 PM
I'm thinking Kerrigan's going to be meeting the Xel'Naga. :D

I fuckin' hope not.

Hawki
09-04-2012, 04:02 PM
It's kind of interesting with Zerus, how looking at the tileset, and arguably the picture of the planet itself, it seems to have grown some vegetation and the like-a sharp contrast from its ashworld status back in the day when the xel'naga were manipulating the zerg. Maybe the xel'naga stayed there after the zerg had left and terraformed it? Maybe another race did so? Maybe it'll be a new zerg homeworld or something.

Doubt Kerrigan will actually meet xel'naga though. I'm sure their presence will be felt per se, if only through Duran/Narud, but a meeting, if it happens at all, seems more suited thematically for the protoss campaign.

DarthYam
09-04-2012, 04:04 PM
Even in the first manual it was stated that MOST of the Xel naga died. Not all of them. The room for a few surviving was always there. Also, it could help Kerrigan get a greater understanding of her destiny, and if the Dark Voice is a xel'naga could flesh out his back story.

Shadow Archon
09-04-2012, 04:25 PM
Even in the first manual it was stated that MOST of the Xel naga died. Not all of them. The room for a few surviving was always there. Also, it could help Kerrigan get a greater understanding of her destiny, and if the Dark Voice is a xel'naga could flesh out his back story.

I wonder how different the last cycle is to the new cycle here with the Protoss/Zerg.

Hawki
09-04-2012, 04:31 PM
I wonder how different the last cycle is to the new cycle here with the Protoss/Zerg.

I think the cycle's been pretty screwed up for the xel'naga. I think they have a chance of rebuilding their race in a sense-my guess is that the phoenix creatures seen in Shadow of the Xel'naga and Twilight are designed to collect genetic material (certainly that's the case in the former) through which they can rebuild via the protoss and zerg. However, the chance of the zerg and protoss coming together as originally intended seems pretty moot now. As Zeratul asks, do they come to save (allowing the protoss and zerg to live as their own species) or to destroy (to wipe out their mistake)? Certainly their 'children' have provided hybrids of a different kind, labeled as "perversions" and the like.

Shadow Archon
09-04-2012, 04:39 PM
I think the cycle's been pretty screwed up for the xel'naga. I think they have a chance of rebuilding their race in a sense-my guess is that the phoenix creatures seen in Shadow of the Xel'naga and Twilight are designed to collect genetic material (certainly that's the case in the former) through which they can rebuild via the protoss and zerg. However, the chance of the zerg and protoss coming together as originally intended seems pretty moot now. As Zeratul asks, do they come to save (allowing the protoss and zerg to live as their own species) or to destroy (to wipe out their mistake)? Certainly their 'children' have provided hybrids of a different kind, labeled as "perversions" and the like.

Do you think we're going to see real Protoss/Zerg Xel'naga beings in LotV?

I certainly agree with all your points, but I was just wondering if the combo of the last cycle differs from the combo in this cycle.

Also, does anyone else get a Neon Genesis Evangelion vibe from the Xel'naga's life cycle? I keep thinking of 3rd impact when the true combining happens.

Hawki
09-04-2012, 04:54 PM
Do you think we're going to see real Protoss/Zerg Xel'naga beings in LotV?

I certainly agree with all your points, but I was just wondering if the combo of the last cycle differs from the combo in this cycle.

Also, does anyone else get a Neon Genesis Evangelion vibe from the Xel'naga's life cycle? I keep thinking of 3rd impact when the true combining happens.

I can't help but suspect that yeah, any xel'naga we see will have protoss/zerg characteristics. Kind of a shame-would be nice to see them in their prior form (assuming that each incarnation differs significantly).

Can't really comment on Neon Genesis I'm afraid, as I have scant knowledge of it. I understand that humans and the Angels are effectively two divergent evolutionary paths (humans ate from the Tree of Knowledge, Angels from the Tree of Life) and become a sort of primordial soup at the end of the series but...yeah. Got nothing I'm afraid.:(

Shadow Archon
09-04-2012, 05:19 PM
I can't help but suspect that yeah, any xel'naga we see will have protoss/zerg characteristics. Kind of a shame-would be nice to see them in their prior form (assuming that each incarnation differs significantly).

I really wanted to see a past version to see if they differed. The Purities taking different roads in subtle ways.


Can't really comment on Neon Genesis I'm afraid, as I have scant knowledge of it. I understand that humans and the Angels are effectively two divergent evolutionary paths (humans ate from the Tree of Knowledge, Angels from the Tree of Life) and become a sort of primordial soup at the end of the series but...yeah. Got nothing I'm afraid.:(

Great series. Will rip your mind a new one, but in the end, it gives you a greater depth to interpret series. That is if you finally understand it. Else, you'll just call fans crazy. The fun fact is that both are kinda of true. :p

DemolitionSquid
09-04-2012, 05:24 PM
I JUST noticed they replaced the Oracle's Cloaking with Revelation. Why would they make such a stupid change? What the hell is the point in having both Preordain and Revelation?

Shadow Archon
09-04-2012, 05:39 PM
I JUST noticed they replaced the Oracle's Cloaking with Revelation. Why would they make such a stupid change? What the hell is the point in having both Preordain and Revelation?

Placeholder? Separate ability that does something similar?

DemolitionSquid
09-04-2012, 05:44 PM
Placeholder? Separate ability that does something similar?

Having a separate ability that does something similar is a waste of space. The Oracle having Preordain and Revelation is like giving the Infestor both Fungal Growth and Plague, or giving the Thor both Strike Cannons and Yamoto Cannon. The whole thing is extremely disappointing.

Shadow Archon
09-04-2012, 05:45 PM
Having a separate ability that does something similar is a waste of space. The Oracle having Preordain and Revelation is like giving the Infestor both Fungal Growth and Plague, or giving the Thor both Strike Cannons and Yamoto Cannon. The whole thing is extremely disappointing.

Probably just a place holder or does something unrelated to each other. Though the uncreative use of names makes me want it to be a place holder.

Kostov
09-05-2012, 05:39 AM
Are there any new extracted images since the beta started?

Jconant
09-05-2012, 09:01 AM
The oracle change makes sense to me.
1. the new spell seems to be an alternative tech choice for mobile detection, as switching techs as protoss is the most time consuming and expensive compared to zerg and terran; and HAVING to get robotics for detection (not including the immobile photon cannons) seems unfair now that i think about it.

2. cloaking in blizzards' mind was overpowered; it was probably too good of a game changer for protoss mid tier tech, as cloaking would be the one thing that would make a force of gateway units beat a bioball (for example) that would have otherwise won. Granted a pro player would be prepared to have detection, but for lower ranked players a push like this which the opponent did not see ahead of time would not have a fair chance to counter once its out.

Granted I think its a mistake- giving the cloak to mothership instead of something else to make it worth 8 food and extra resources returns it to that corner of "almost useless" high tech unit that a player would get only if they are doing very well and has plenty of resources to spend.

Noctis
09-05-2012, 12:37 PM
i must say after seeing some of huskies games the tempest is cool however for costing 300/300 im still not convinced its worth replacing the carrier over. unless blizz wants people to only make a couple to augment their armies.

DemolitionSquid
09-05-2012, 12:46 PM
I can't believe that Oracle Cloak was in any way "overpowered." The unit itself is very weak and easily targeted, especially once everything around it is cloaked. In fact, I submit that perhaps the Cloaking was underpowered because the Oracle is far weaker and cheaper than the Arbiter was, and thus easier to eliminate for the enemy before Cloak could be useful.

Preordain and Revelation should be a singular ability. The only semi-logical reason they're not is because "a temporary AoE sight-giving ability" is the definition of Terran Scanner Sweep. My bet is they built themselves into a corner, giving both Terran and Protoss such similar abilities, and had to reassess the situation.

Jconant
09-05-2012, 03:50 PM
thats what i mean, one spell is a mini scanner sweep for finding cloaked units while the other is a map reveal


considering that blizzard increased the attack speed of the tempest makes me think they are hitting a sweet spot for them, they seem to perform a lot better now.

Visions of Khas
09-05-2012, 04:06 PM
I'm watching Husky's video from earlier this morning. And I'm pretty damned excited for Protoss terran finally. :)

Noctis
09-06-2012, 12:07 AM
I'm watching Husky's video from earlier this morning. And I'm pretty damned excited for Protoss terran finally. :)

if the toss can keep an advanced scout to maximize tempest range and use oracle's reveal abilities tempests would be useful for long range attack/harass of army/bases. assuming this strat isn't brutalized in beta making it pointless.

Gifted
09-06-2012, 08:44 AM
Noctis, something to remember.

Version 1 beta Mothership was incredibly overpowered... like defending bases by themselves overpowered. I remember one game I took out a 70 pt army by my own mothership because of it's 25 energy warp mechanic and enhanced shield regen.

With that in mind, I say that any analysis of the early beta units should be approached with a grain of salt. I'd say we'll have a better view of how HOTS will be by version 3. (The notorious roach food increase from 1 to 2 for example!)

If we're going to see it gutted, it should be by then.

Skyze
09-06-2012, 10:24 AM
I really did like the motherhood core being attached to the nexus, able to jump back and forth as a cannon. I think it could of stayed as that with some fine tuning adjustment to make it not so imbalanced. Would of liked them to try and balance it as is instead of slowly floating around now. But I've just played the custom map, not the real thing yet.

Noctis
09-06-2012, 11:56 AM
Noctis, something to remember.

Version 1 beta Mothership was incredibly overpowered... like defending bases by themselves overpowered. I remember one game I took out a 70 pt army by my own mothership because of it's 25 energy warp mechanic and enhanced shield regen.

With that in mind, I say that any analysis of the early beta units should be approached with a grain of salt. I'd say we'll have a better view of how HOTS will be by version 3. (The notorious roach food increase from 1 to 2 for example!)

If we're going to see it gutted, it should be by then.

Ah yes I'd forgotten that...back when the momma ship was cool T_T the core is cool, by making it mobile you can have it move with the army as it upgrades to the mothership

Kostov
09-07-2012, 11:05 AM
http://starcraft2.judgehype.com/news/datamining-heart-of-the-swarm-missions-defis-etc/

Last missions on Zerus, eh? Probably Xel'naga-related? And could that "tentacle monster" be the omegalisk from the concept art?

Visions of Khas
09-07-2012, 11:12 AM
"Posthumousmitosis"? So Zerglings will split into Broodlings or something upon death? And will we be able to use Kerrigan to directly infest buildings or untis? Man I'm looking forward to this game.

Since we'll be visiting Zerus, I'm thinking Kerrigan will definitely meet the Xel'Naga and even unleash the Dark Voice itself, forcing the Protoss to deal with it in Legacy of the Void.

Kostov
09-07-2012, 11:14 AM
"Posthumousmitosis"? So Zerglings will split into Broodlings or something upon death?

This was one of the abilities in the earliest HotS SP screenshots, it's 20% chance of spawning 2 broodlings after death or something like that.

Sheliek
09-07-2012, 11:28 AM
Has anyone pored through the editor to find campaign assets like in WoL's beta?

Hawki
09-07-2012, 04:51 PM
http://starcraft2.judgehype.com/news/datamining-heart-of-the-swarm-missions-defis-etc/

Last missions on Zerus, eh? Probably Xel'naga-related? And could that "tentacle monster" be the omegalisk from the concept art?

It does raise an interesting possibility. Though look at the planet list, how they're in alphabetical order. I don't think it's necessarily mission order, considering how there's apparently three on Korhal (matching the three on Char from WoL).

TheEconomist
09-07-2012, 04:54 PM
Has anyone pored through the editor to find campaign assets like in WoL's beta?

Don't think anyone cares anymore.

Noctis
09-08-2012, 05:13 PM
"Posthumousmitosis"? So Zerglings will split into Broodlings or something upon death? And will we be able to use Kerrigan to directly infest buildings or untis? Man I'm looking forward to this game.

Since we'll be visiting Zerus, I'm thinking Kerrigan will definitely meet the Xel'Naga and even unleash the Dark Voice itself, forcing the Protoss to deal with it in Legacy of the Void.

ehh i dont think the xel'naga will appear till LotV if they do at all, otherwise i can see sc2 ending with a faction of zerg and toss uniting to become the next xel'naga generation and have a new faction for sc3. for zerus i think kerrigan may find some xel'naga knowledge and perhaps a confrontation with the dark voice. remember with kerrigans death the dark voice controls the zerg. raynor saving her was the game changer.

Kimera757
09-08-2012, 07:11 PM
Blizzard has explained how the xel'naga (except possibly the Fallen One) are now dead. The xel'naga won't be back, but I could picture Kerrigan going to Zerus in order to collect some information or old tech.

However, Zerus is really far away. I don't think Kerrigan could go there during the course of the war. Perhaps Zerus will just appear in someone's memory.

Hawki
09-08-2012, 07:52 PM
When did they say that? Thought there was every indication that there was some xel'naga still around, such as forming the backbone of the trilogy, to Zeratul's outright statement that the xel'naga are returning.

As for Zerus, I think it'll actually be visited, though presumably there'll be some McGuffin to make it possible for a return trip within a decent timeframe.

Noctis
09-08-2012, 09:00 PM
When did they say that? Thought there was every indication that there was some xel'naga still around, such as forming the backbone of the trilogy, to Zeratul's outright statement that the xel'naga are returning.

As for Zerus, I think it'll actually be visited, though presumably there'll be some McGuffin to make it possible for a return trip within a decent timeframe.

the return of the xel'naga would also be fulfilled by the proper planned union of protoss and zerg resulting in the creation of xel'naga.

coming starcraft 3 - release date TBD "soon".

Hawki
09-08-2012, 09:24 PM
the return of the xel'naga would also be fulfilled by the proper planned union of protoss and zerg resulting in the creation of xel'naga.

coming starcraft 3 - release date TBD "soon".

Dunno-I again refer to Zeratul's "save or destroy" line concerning their return, and I doubt such a union is possible now. Certainly not within the timeframe of the series.

And I disagree with SC3-"soon" is too...soon. Try "soonish" instead.:p

Shadow Archon
09-08-2012, 09:38 PM
As for Zerus, I think it'll actually be visited, though presumably there'll be some McGuffin to make it possible for a return trip within a decent timeframe.

Uh, the UED had the FTL to travel from Earth to the Korpulu sector 60,000 light years away under a month. The Zerg gave them a head start at the end of Brood War, and chased them down, suggesting they have superior FTL to the UED.

Zerus is near the Galactic core.

Hawki
09-08-2012, 09:55 PM
Uh, the UED had the FTL to travel from Earth to the Korpulu sector 60,000 light years away under a month. The Zerg gave them a head start at the end of Brood War, and chased them down, suggesting they have superior FTL to the UED.

Zerus is near the Galactic core.

Did the UED ever engage in FTL travel back to Earth though? Judging by the ending cinematic of BW, I'm guessing they didn't.

Zerus is probably closer to the Koprulu sector than Earth, but it still took the zerg an extended period of time to reach the K-sector-it took 60 years alone for them to reach the sector for wherever they were when the Overmind learned of humanity. All things considered, the travel times for the zerg should be slower nowadays as I can't see Kerrigan using the same wormholes the Overmind did. Behemoths and leviathans can get her around, but for a trip to Zerus?

Hence, McGuffin. Or a plothole. We'll find out I guess.

Shadow Archon
09-08-2012, 10:09 PM
Did the UED ever engage in FTL travel back to Earth though? Judging by the ending cinematic of BW, I'm guessing they didn't.

We don't see them overrun in the cinematic though. The description seems to hint at them retreating, only possible at this scale with FTL.

We either have to believe their idiots for not using their own FTL, usable in seconds out of atmosphere, or that the Zerg chased them down.

Occam's razor suggests the simplest solution.


Zerus is probably closer to the Koprulu sector than Earth, but it still took the zerg an extended period of time to reach the K-sector-it took 60 years alone for them to reach the sector for wherever they were when the Overmind learned of humanity.

Simply explained that the Zerg took their time. Remember, the trip took thousands of years and they were invading hundreds of worlds along it and integrating new life into their swarm.


All things considered, the travel times for the zerg should be slower nowadays as I can't see Kerrigan using the same wormholes the Overmind did.

Why not? I doubt that the Overmind was the only being capable of Zerg FTL considering the other factions capable of it. For example:

Alan Schezer's Brood. They moved to multiple planets in the series of Enslavers.

After the Overmind's death, the Renegade Zerg's arrival on Shakuras and Kerrigan's brood that arrived there as well.

Ulrezaj had his own brood IIRC and it moved at FTL too.

Her abilities may be degraded, but I don't think that's proof of no FTL capability.


Behemoths and leviathans can get her around, but for a trip to Zerus?


Not unbelievable. Who says that the wormhole thing is unique to the Hiveminds themselves? They very well could do it by themselves.


Hence, McGuffin. Or a plothole. We'll find out I guess.

....I think people around here like to hit the plothole button too much. It's perfectly explainable with what we have.

Hawki
09-08-2012, 10:21 PM
We don't see them overrun in the cinematic though. The description seems to hint at them retreating, only possible at this scale with FTL.

We either have to believe their idiots for not using their own FTL, usable in seconds out of atmosphere, or that the Zerg chased them down.

Occam's razor suggests the simplest solution.

The Hyperion is an oddity, but at the least, I could entertain the notion that Horner had already plotted a course and charged the warp engines, a process that takes hours. Terran vessels are stated to have to emerge from warp space further away than protoss ones, but as the Hyperion was modified by the Umojan Protectorate, I could see Horner pulling it off.

Concerning the UED, their tech is more advanced, but I could assume that the same rules apply to an extent-time to charge engines and time to plot a course. First order of business is to get away from Char Aleph and Kerrigan. Presumably that didn't work out. And besides, if they DID enter warp space, could the zerg really engage them? Nothing against that, but it's quite rare in sci-fi where your x-space can be a potential battleground.


Simply explained that the Zerg took their time. Remember, the trip took thousands of years and they were invading hundreds of worlds along it and integrating new life into their swarm.

There's no real indication of how long the trip took-I'd go for centuries or a millenium at the most. Either way, keep in mind the zerg were essentially going from point a to point b, eliminating/assimilating species they found along the way, not zig-zagging across the galaxy. Might be some diversion, but nothing major.


Why not? I doubt that the Overmind was the only being capable of Zerg FTL considering the other factions capable of it. For example:

Alan Schezer's Brood. They moved to multiple planets in the series of Enslavers.

After the Overmind's death, the Renegade Zerg's arrival on Shakuras and Kerrigan's brood that arrived there as well.

Ulrezaj had his own brood IIRC and it moved at FTL too.

Her abilities may be degraded, but I don't think that's proof of no FTL capability.

I didn't say the zerg didn't have FTL, I said that I doubted they'd have the Overmind's MO. In theory, a wormhole should provide a faster travel time than other methods of transport (and does in the series via protoss/xel'naga warp gates) Behemoths and leviathans can enter warp space on their own volition, travelling normally. Kerrigan's used them before for that, she uses a leviathan again in HotS. Point is, there's never been any indication that she has the ability to do the even faster method the Overmind used.

Shadow Archon
09-08-2012, 10:57 PM
The Hyperion is an oddity, but at the least, I could entertain the notion that Horner had already plotted a course and charged the warp engines, a process that takes hours. Terran vessels are stated to have to emerge from warp space further away than protoss ones, but as the Hyperion was modified by the Umojan Protectorate, I could see Horner pulling it off.

You have to note that there are two different Warp processes.

Warp jumping, from Queen of Blades, stated to take hours.

Sub-Warp, from Uprising, Liberty's Crusade, and Twilight. A process that can be initiated within seconds.

Presumably there are limits to sub-warp compared to Warp.



Concerning the UED, their tech is more advanced, but I could assume that the same rules apply to an extent-time to charge engines and time to plot a course. First order of business is to get away from Char Aleph and Kerrigan. Presumably that didn't work out. And besides, if they DID enter warp space, could the zerg really engage them? Nothing against that, but it's quite rare in sci-fi where your x-space can be a potential battleground.

Well, it is possible. We don't really know, but there is enough "wiggle room" to suggest that they did, or sub-jumped a good distance away and were preparing for a full on Warp.

Though, it also depends upon the order they were defeated in the mission (no canon statement for it) and what limitations the Zerg have, if any.


There's no real indication of how long the trip took-I'd go for centuries or a millenium at the most.

They appear in the mid 2400s, we know they were created after the Protoss by an unknown amount of time. Assuming the Xel'naga made a year trip at most considering there supposed origins, there's still the remaining amount of time for the Aeon of Strife to finish, the build-up of the Protoss Empire, and Adun's time period roughly 700 to 1000 years before the main game, it has to be over a thousand years.


Either way, keep in mind the zerg were essentially going from point a to point b, eliminating/assimilating species they found along the way, not zig-zagging across the galaxy. Might be some diversion, but nothing major.


The Zerg left the lifeless, burning world
of Zerus and laid waste to every planet
they found along their path towards the
Protoss Homeworld. As they progressed
slowly through the trackless dark between
the stars, the Zerg assimilated only the
strongest of the races that they came
across. The swarm continued to build
steadily, ever-increasing in size and
power. As they progressed, the Overmind
sent out numerous deep-space probes
that scouted ahead of the swarm,
searching for new worlds to plunder.
Despite innumerable victories, the
Overmind was greatly disturbed. The
Overmind was aware that the Protoss had
become a highly psionic race, able to
bend and warp the very fabric of reality
to their whims. It sought a way to counter
the awesome might of the Protoss, but
found no answers among the genetic
strains it devoured.
On the verge of despair, the Overmind
made an amazing discovery. One of its deepspace
probes had relayed the location and
vital statistics of a race that occupied a series
of nondescript worlds, right under the
shadow of the Protoss.
The new race, called Humanity, was mere
generations away from developing into a
formidable psionic power. But the Overmind
also knew that Humanity was still in its infant
stages, hardly capable of defending itself
against the ravenous Zerg. Although a shortlived
and seemingly frail species, the
Overmind knew that Humanity would be the
final determinant in its victory over the
Protoss. If it could assimilate the psionic
potential of Humanity, the Overmind would
have the ability to combat the Protoss on its
own terms.
Thus, the Zerg swarms slowly made their
way towards the burgeoning worlds of
Humanity. The journey lasted for sixty years,
but eventually the massive, extended Zerg
Swarm reached the outskirts of the Terran
Sector of Koprulu

Well, there's an explanation for this.

One, the Zerg took their time, making a slow approach and growing their forces.

Two, the Zerg's psionic ability increased with there time experimenting on humans allowing faster than light travel.


I didn't say the zerg didn't have FTL, I said that I doubted they'd have the Overmind's MO. In theory, a wormhole should provide a faster travel time than other methods of transport (and does in the series via protoss/xel'naga warp gates)

Sure. But how do we know that it is faster than there other travel methods or that lesser hivemind beings can't create one?


Behemoths and leviathans can enter warp space on their own volition, travelling normally. Kerrigan's used them before for that, she uses a leviathan again in HotS. Point is, there's never been any indication that she has the ability to do the even faster method the Overmind used.

There's also been no mention that she can't as well. You would say that I can't prove a negative, and thus burden of proof falls on me. So, let me get some quotes.


Zerg Overmind
I am well pleased young Cerebrate, and so long as my prize remains intact, I shall remain pleased. Thus, its life and yours shall be made as one. As it prospers, so shall you. For you are part of the Swarm. If ever your flesh should fail, that flesh shall be made anew. That is my covenant with all Cerebrates.
Now you have grown strong enough to bear the rigors of warp travel with the Swarm. Thus we shall make our exit from this blasted world and secure the Chrysalis within the Hive cluster, upon the planet Char.
Zasz
Remnants of the Protoss fleet still linger within this planet's orbit. They will attempt to block our exodus at every turn.
Daggoth
My Brood shall aid you, Cerebrate, should you require assistance.



“Now you have grown strong enough to bear the
rigors of warp travel with the Swarm,” the Overmind
stated, its words sending a thrum of power through the
Swarm. “Thus we shall make our exit from this blasted
world and secure the Chrysalis within the Hive Cluster
upon the planet Char.”
As one the first brood rose, soaring high above the
ruined city. They broke free of the planet’s weak, fading
grasp and approached the storm above, pulled into
that yawning, beckoning darkness at its center, and
vanished. The cerebrate felt their transit through the
hive-mind link all zerg shared and allowed a spark of
contentment to linger within its own mind. Then the
Overmind summoned it as well, and the cerebrate
called its brood together, linking them tightly for travel
through the warp. They rose from the crater, letting
the power of the Swarm fill them as they ascended
and soon the darkness had drowned out all thought,
all sense, as it carried them across the vastness of space
to their destination.
And within the Chrysalis, faintly visible through its
thick skin and viscous contents, a body writhed in
pain. Though not conscious the figure within shifted,
stirred, unable to lie still as the zerg virus penetrated
every cell, changing DNA to match their own. Soon
the Chrysalis would open and the new zerg would
emerge. All the Swarm exulted with the Overmind.
And, as they departed and Tarsonis died behind
them, the mind trapped within the Chrysalis screamed.

That's literally all we have on the process.

It could also be that the Zerg's Warp Space FTL is just as fast or that it is the same.

Regardless, we don't have the info to really debate it.

Also to point out, the Zerg travel using Void psionics, not Khalai based psionics.

Quirel
09-09-2012, 11:13 AM
May I offer an alternative theory?

Warp travel is probably resource-intensive, particularly over long distances. It could be that the UED forces retreated and regrouped elsewhere in the Korprulu Sector to take on fuel and make repairs, at which point the Zerg ambushed them.

Shadow Archon
09-09-2012, 03:09 PM
May I offer an alternative theory?

Warp travel is probably resource-intensive, particularly over long distances. It could be that the UED forces retreated and regrouped elsewhere in the Korprulu Sector to take on fuel and make repairs, at which point the Zerg ambushed them.

The problem here is that this isn't suggested in the lore and doesn't explain how the Terrans' Super Carriers stayed in Warp Space for 28 years straight without needing a refuel.


Eventually, the warp-drive engines of the
four supercarriers reached critical meltdown.
After twenty-eight years of warp travel, the
huge ships emerged into real space near the
edge of a habitable star system. Some 60,000
light years from the Earth, their engines
destroyed and their life-support batteries
nearly exhausted, the ships engaged their
emergency protocols and plummeted towards
the nearest habitable worlds in the system

It only stopped when the engines were destroyed.

What we know is that the UED managed a 60,000 light year trip under a month, even possibly under a single week, and this was just due to their normal FTL engines.

No one comments on them being absurdly fast and when they retreat, the Zerg hunted them down and slaughtered them.

I think that's sufficient proof for them to have the FTL to reach Zerus within a year, considering that depending upon exactly where it is in the core and where the Korpulu Sector is, that it could be relatively a short distance compared to the travel to earth.

TheEconomist
09-11-2012, 10:04 AM
The problem here is that this isn't suggested in the lore and doesn't explain how the Terrans' Super Carriers stayed in Warp Space for 28 years straight without needing a refuel.

Refer to any of the hundreds of 'hard' science fiction books for plausible explanations.

Shadow Archon
09-11-2012, 12:42 PM
Refer to any of the hundreds of 'hard' science fiction books for plausible explanations.

I'm not going to make up an explanation with no basis on the Starcraft universe. :p

It's either we believe they can move around the galaxy relatively fast, or we assume it's a plothole. I think the 60,000 light years under a month for the UED, and them apparently not even remarking at this advantage as special is proof of that the Zerg have the FTL to get to Zerus in a reasonable time frame.

Turalyon
09-11-2012, 06:47 PM
... the Zerg have the FTL to get to Zerus in a reasonable time frame.

This depends on what you classify as a reasonable time frame and in what context. Either way, it'll be interesting to see how they can justify a "side trip" to such a distant location that may take a month (or some considerable amount of time) to get to when the threat of the DV is so near and imminent in the K sector.

Shadow Archon
09-11-2012, 07:12 PM
This depends on what you classify as a reasonable time frame and in what context. Either way, it'll be interesting to see how they can justify a "side trip" to such a distant location that may take a month (or some considerable amount of time) to get to when the threat of the DV is so near and imminent in the K sector.

Look at it like this.

The UED has an FTL that can, go at 1,440,000c or 720,000c.

The Zerg managed to chase them down when they retreated.

Even assuming that it is half the distance from earth, that's only a week or two of travel time assuming UED numbers. Any faster than that, and it's less time.

The DV threat won't be happening too soon. There was a two year gap between WoL and HotS. There might be another one for LotV.

EDIT: But yes. There explanation for it, if any, will be nice.

topsecret221
09-11-2012, 07:34 PM
Keep in mind that the UED we're not using their FTL engines (or warp drive, or several other possible machines of interstellar travel. Mass Relays, anyone?) when the Zerg caught up to them.
Assuming that they did not break light-speed thousands of times over, they probably used a warp drive. A warp drive bends space in a way that makes travel between two points much, much faster, so a trip between K-sector and earth is not entirely unrealistic (besides, Earth has been putting tons of research into interstellar travel. After hundreds of years of dedicated research, a prototype warp drive could have been constructed and mounted in the Aleksander).
To use such a warp drive, it would require enormous amounts of energy. After all of the resources spent in the campaign to take Koprulu, it's very much likely that they simply didn't have enough energy to get back to Earth with the drive. Upon retreat, Kerrigan simply had one of her broods attack the fleet.

That's what I always thought, anyways.

Shadow Archon
09-11-2012, 08:36 PM
Keep in mind that the UED we're not using their FTL engines (or warp drive, or several other possible machines of interstellar travel. Mass Relays, anyone?) when the Zerg caught up to them.

We never actually see the Zerg catch up to them (I think those are Wraiths, not scourge at the end of the video), and we don't know where they are.

A sub-warp jump would do fine, and they could probably get far away enough to prepare a full warp. The question is how fast is there sub-warp,
is there actual warp similar to the Hyperion's in SC2, and where they were at when the Zerg jumped them.

If the UED could get away but didn't, it means their idiots.

Thus Occam's Razor, the Zerg are faster than the UED.


Assuming that they did not break light-speed thousands of times over, they probably used a warp drive. A warp drive bends space in a way that makes travel between two points much, much faster, so a trip between K-sector and earth is not entirely unrealistic (besides, Earth has been putting tons of research into interstellar travel. After hundreds of years of dedicated research, a prototype warp drive could have been constructed and mounted in the Aleksander).

How is "Warp" drive any different than there current Warp engines?

One works by an alternate dimension, one works by space time. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive)

Why would they go in one direction of FTL travel and go into another? One is not the evolutionary path of the other.

Also, this is just kinda of speculation with no substance to base it upon. I'm not trying to be mean, but this is never commented on as something done that was special.


To use such a warp drive, it would require enormous amounts of energy. After all of the resources spent in the campaign to take Koprulu, it's very much likely that they simply didn't have enough energy to get back to Earth with the drive. Upon retreat, Kerrigan simply had one of her broods attack the fleet.

That's what I always thought, anyways.

Again, a bit more speculation based off nothing in the lore. Don't want to come off as condescending, but generally, the best speculation is based on quotes and such.

As for a quote:



Raynor understood at once. Pilots and navigators planned warp-jumps very carefully, often for hours beforehand. That was because a single mistake could send a ship millions of light-years off course, turn it inside out, or worse. Plus the warp engines usually needed a few hours to warm up. Jumping without preparation or planning was sheer madness.

Millions of light year jumps are possible for Terran ships in the Korpulu sector. So there's not a energy problem for long travel. I have an idea for it:

Possibly, they have a time dilation affect inside of it though. In real space, travel time is rather short, however in Warp Space, more time is exhibited aboard the ship.

Thus the need for Cryo-Chambers for a two week to a months time of travel.

Hawki
09-11-2012, 08:44 PM
Millions of light year jumps are possible for Terran ships in the Korpulu sector.

Um, you do realize the galaxy is only 130,000 light years in diameter, right?

Sorry, I've kind of given up on trying to work out the details of warp space bar maintaining the wiki article, but the stickler in me just had to point that out.:)

Kimera757
09-11-2012, 08:51 PM
When did they say that? Thought there was every indication that there was some xel'naga still around, such as forming the backbone of the trilogy, to Zeratul's outright statement that the xel'naga are returning.

In Twilight, they pretty much confirmed their deaths.

The more recent artifacts were, I presume, the Fallen One's creation, but there's no guarantee.

And yes, Zeratul could be conflating the hybrids with the xel'naga, because in a way they are xel'naga (just twisted ones).

As for the UED, I don't know how long it took for the trip to the K-Sector, but I suspect it takes a lot of time and energy to prepare to jump 60,000 light years, and they just didn't have enough time before the zerg fell on them. (It's a bit like trying to charge up the afterburners, but you need an hour to do it, while the zerg will land on you in 45 minutes.)

While a terran ship might be able to jump millions of light years, I don't believe it's ever been stated to happen deliberately. The terran vessels in Uprising, at least, seemed to take a long time to get places. (Same in the comics. Even a relatively short trip took at least two days.)

topsecret221
09-11-2012, 08:57 PM
I try to avoid using anything presented in the Queen of Blades. It is one of the worst SC novels, and the facts that are presented are sketchy at best. The changes to the storyline that are presented in the book that are actually good didn't deserve to be wrapped up with everything else that book changed.

Shadow Archon
09-11-2012, 09:10 PM
Um, you do realize the galaxy is only 130,000 light years in diameter, right?

Yes. He would end up outside the galaxy. :p


Sorry, I've kind of given up on trying to work out the details of warp space bar maintaining the wiki article, but the stickler in me just had to point that out.:)

Oh, it's okay.


As for the UED, I don't know how long it took for the trip to the K-Sector, but I suspect it takes a lot of time and energy to prepare to jump 60,000 light years,

I'm going off the timeline. They left after the Overmind died, and appeared in the Korpulu sector possibly before the Protoss campaign dependning upon when the intro happens.

There isn't a lot of time there, and as for energy, we don't know if longer jumps require more power.


and they just didn't have enough time before the zerg fell on them. (It's a bit like trying to charge up the afterburners, but you need an hour to do it, while the zerg will land on you in 45 minutes.)

This goes against the sub-warp in uprising and the warp in "Escape from Mar Sara" where they were capable of jumping to different solar systems in seconds.


While a terran ship might be able to jump millions of light years, I don't believe it's ever been stated to happen deliberately. The terran vessels in Uprising, at least, seemed to take a long time to get places. (Same in the comics. Even a relatively short trip took at least two days.)

We don't know the distances though, the speed of Korpulu sector Terran ships in comparison to UED ships, and the size of the Korpulu Sector. There's literally no way to judge the distance.


I try to avoid using anything presented in the Queen of Blades. It is one of the worst SC novels, and the facts that are presented are sketchy at best. The changes to the storyline that are presented in the book that are actually good didn't deserve to be wrapped up with everything else that book changed.

It's unfortunately canon, and thus it has a valid interpretation of the events. With no canon policy, all contradictions are equally canon.

IMHO, I don't see what's wrong with the Zerg getting to Zerus within two weeks.

l33telboi
09-11-2012, 11:03 PM
FTL in Starcraft suffers a lot because the original game didn't really define how it worked, so then the other authors writing the books basically had to invent their own stuff, and so there are a lot of contradictory information. FTL is, after all, a pretty important part of any soft science fiction universe.

Having said that, Blizzard has tried to mesh it all together, if in a rather haphazard way.

The way I figure it works, based mostly on the later novels, is a little like this: There are two types of FTL, warp travel, and sub-warp travel.

Warp travel requires extensive calculations to be performed before initiated, and it's also non-linear in nature (that means it doesn't go from point A to point B at a certain speed), judging by the quote about a miscalculation putting a vessel millions of lightyears away from their current location in the blink of an eye. Travel to a specific location does still take time, however. It's disorienting for the people inside the vessel, and it looks as if you're trying to travel through a blue tunnel.

Sub-warp travel on the other hand works more like FTL in nBSG, with a vessel winking out at location A and then winking in at location B, almost as if by teleportation. This requires no calculations. I'm assuming there's some downside to this (like fuel consumption or perhaps range) because otherwise there'd be no point in using regular warp drives. This is also the type of warp travel that Raynor appears to use in WoL.

The reason I believe Blizzard has tried to fix this is because both systems are demonstrated in the Dark Templar trilogy, written by the same author. So it seems they told her of both types of FTL travel.

In regards to Zerus and the Zerg, the revelation that they can travel to Zerus is perhaps exactly that... a revelation, but not that problematic. The UED certainly has the capacity to travel such distances in little time, and it's not impossible for the Zerg to be faster or as fast. Why the long travel time originally? Perhaps they spent most of that time assimilating new species and improving themselves? Or maybe they've simply evolved their FTL to become faster?

I do believe that Zerus is going to be one of those "travel there and back again at the speed of plot" type deals, considering we've seen some artwork with Kerrigan on Zerus.

Turalyon
09-11-2012, 11:35 PM
...all contradictions are equally canon

I hope you're not trying to justify ass-pulls. :p


IMHO, I don't see what's wrong with the Zerg getting to Zerus within two weeks.

Regardless of the possibility of such a thing, who says the Zerg or Kerrigan have to get to Zerus in the first place? One would think that there'd still be Zerg on their homeplanet of all things.

Also, who's to say that those faraway Zerg can't be controlled via psychic powers over distances of light years? I'm sure the Overmind was doing that easily beforehand. If the Overmind thinks Kerrigan to be more powerful than itself, let alone expect her to take over its reigns, shouldn't we expect Kerrigan to be able to do that as well?

topsecret221
09-11-2012, 11:38 PM
The devs say so, because they mentioned that Kerrigan is on the front lines in EVERY mission, if I'm not mistaken.

Shadow Archon
09-11-2012, 11:43 PM
I hope you're not trying to justify ass-pulls. :p

I'm not justifying it, I'm just saying that someone who uses any Starcraft lore that contradicts other lore in Starcraft is still valid. For example, the Uprising version of the Korhal bombardment is just as valid as the Manual or Liberty's Crusade, or I'Mengsk despite the minute or big differences.

There is no canon policy, so therefore all are equal.



Regardless of the possibility of such a thing, who says the Zerg or Kerrigan have to get to Zerus in the first place? One would think that there'd still be Zerg on their homeplanet of all things.

Also, who's to say that those faraway Zerg can't be controlled via psychic powers over distances of light years? I'm sure the Overmind was doing that easily beforehand. If the Overmind thinks Kerrigan to be more powerful than itself, let alone expect her to take over its reigns, shouldn't we expect Kerrigan to be able to do that as well?

She's going to be on Zerus because she's always going to be on the front line in every mission, and Zerus doesn't have normal Zerg going off the datamines, but I won't say anymore due to spoilers.

Turalyon
09-11-2012, 11:54 PM
The devs say a lot of things...

As to spoilers, I don't mind. I expect utterly ridiculous things to potentially happen in SC lore these days so I can't say I'd be too surprised if it happens to be spoilerish.

Shadow Archon
09-12-2012, 12:01 AM
The devs say a lot of things...

And their word is law. :p


As to spoilers, I don't mind. I expect utterly ridiculous things to potentially happen in SC lore these days so I can't say I'd be too surprised if it happens to be spoilerish.

Spoiler than:

Primal Zerg on Zerus.

Gradius
09-21-2012, 07:22 PM
The UED use some version of FTL where they gain increased speed by trading off time in their local field of reference. That's why they were able to get there in like 2 weeks, but had to come out of cryo-hybernation. They were frozen and the journey probably lasted years in their frame of reference, so I don't think it makes sense that the zerg would have this capability.

Quirel
09-21-2012, 10:03 PM
The UED use some version of FTL where they gain increased speed by trading off time in their local field of reference. That's why they were able to get there in like 2 weeks, but had to come out of cryo-hybernation. They were frozen and the journey probably lasted years in their frame of reference, so I don't think it makes sense that the zerg would have this capability.
Just like in Aliens, huh?

Where did you hear that?

Shadow Archon
09-23-2012, 09:14 PM
The UED use some version of FTL where they gain increased speed by trading off time in their local field of reference. That's why they were able to get there in like 2 weeks, but had to come out of cryo-hybernation. They were frozen and the journey probably lasted years in their frame of reference, so I don't think it makes sense that the zerg would have this capability.

Going by what?

Anyways, Zerg are immortal, why would time matter?

Gradius
09-23-2012, 09:31 PM
It's from the game:

Terran Command Center
Adjutant online. Good morning, Captain. Our long voyage from Earth is over, and we are holding a stationary position near the borders of Dominion space. I trust that the effects from your long cold sleep have worn off by now. If not, the Med Officer can provide you with additional CryoStim supplements. Admiral DuGalle has issued a proclamation to the entire fleet via transmat. I'll patch it through to you now.

And the BW manual says they sent the fleet when they learned about the second Overmind. That's a very small timeframe for them to get here.


Anyways, Zerg are immortal, why would time matter?
Because the journey lasted 60+ years one-way for the Overmind. Not to mention that a random sojourn to Zerus while the hybrids are about to invade sounds stupid.

Shadow Archon
09-23-2012, 10:30 PM
It's from the game:

Terran Command Center
Adjutant online. Good morning, Captain. Our long voyage from Earth is over, and we are holding a stationary position near the borders of Dominion space. I trust that the effects from your long cold sleep have worn off by now. If not, the Med Officer can provide you with additional CryoStim supplements. Admiral DuGalle has issued a proclamation to the entire fleet via transmat. I'll patch it through to you now.

And the BW manual says they sent the fleet when they learned about the second Overmind. That's a very small timeframe for them to get here.

And? Being asleep for two weeks is a long cold sleep. We have a time frame and nothing suggests that the time frame inside the ship is any different.


Because the journey lasted 60+ years one-way for the Overmind. Not to mention that a random sojourn to Zerus while the hybrids are about to invade sounds stupid.

It doesn't matter if it sounds stupid, and FTL travel for the hivemind could have simply developed by that point.

Gradius
09-24-2012, 09:58 AM
And? Being asleep for two weeks is a long cold sleep. We have a time frame and nothing suggests that the time frame inside the ship is any different.
Lol. You don't freeze people for a two week journey or put them in a coma. The Queen of Blades novel claims that it took Raynor two weeks to get to Char, and none of his crew had to freeze themselves. The adjutant seems pretty clear they just awoke from "cryogenic cold sleep" as was described in the manual, which we already know the UED love to use, and she offers cryostims (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/CryoStims), which are given to probably speed up heart rate & everything else after you've been unfrozen.

Traveling at 1.5 million times the speed of light like the UED originally did is an absurdity, not that Blizzard has any problem with that, which is why we'll be going to Zerus nonetheless. My theory is the only one that fits the facts and fixes this contradiction, at least for the UED. Take it or leave it, really doesn't matter to me. The SC lore is already a mess. :P


and FTL travel for the hivemind could have simply developed by that point.
I find it funny that I have to prove my statements beyond a shadow of a doubt when they should already be self-evident, but Blizzard's inattention to lore can be handwaved away with "the hivemind simply evolved". Right, the zerg, which don't use technology, can just randomly evolve and reduce their travel times from 60+ years (that's being generous) to a few weeks or months. The zerg open up wormholes, and they go through the wormholes, there is nothing to evolve. Kerrigan cannot seem to top the Overmind and create another being such as herself, but she can somehow top all his efforts at wormhole travel.

Shadow Archon
09-24-2012, 10:41 AM
Lol. You don't freeze people for a two week journey or put them in a coma.

Does it really matter what you would do in a fictional case. Obviously they used it because they didn't need to worry about feeding an army or using a lot of power. Cyrogenics have uses in short durations as well as long.


The Queen of Blades novel claims that it took Raynor two weeks to get to Char, and none of his crew had to freeze themselves.

It also says a Miss-calculated Warp Jump can result in the Hyperion traveling millions of light years. We also don't know the distance and its relevance to UED warp travel, especially considering the jump made in Starcraft 2. Four seconds to reach another solar system assuming a distance from Sol to Alpha Centauri, your looking at a light year per second, which is in the million C range.


The adjutant seems pretty clear they just awoke from "cryogenic cold sleep" as was described in the manual, which we already know the UED love to use, and she offers cryostims (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/CryoStims), which are given to probably speed up heart rate & everything else after you've been unfrozen.

Yet, we know that it still took only two weeks or a month. That alone doesn't suggest time dilation.


Traveling at 1.5 million times the speed of light like the UED originally did is an absurdity, not that Blizzard has any problem with that, which is why we'll be going to Zerus nonetheless. My theory is the only one that fits the facts and fixes this contradiction, at least for the UED. Take it or leave it, really doesn't matter to me. The SC lore is already a mess. :P

Seeing as that in SC2, doing some math with the Escape from Mar Sara scene that the Hyperion had around 1.5 million C speeds, its not that problematic.



I find it funny that I have to prove my statements beyond a shadow of a doubt when they should already be self-evident, but Blizzard's inattention to lore can be handwaved away with "the hivemind simply evolved". Right, the zerg, which don't use technology, can just randomly evolve and reduce their travel times from 60+ years (that's being generous) to a few weeks or months.

This is the Zerg we're talking about. Their biology doesn't have to make sense. If you care about verisimilitude at this point, your in the wrong place. We know that they have developed better FTL in that time seeing as how the original Korpulu trip was faster than the 60 year trip and they have developed better manipulations of Warp Space/Void than the Terrans at the modern time.

We know that the UED has faster FTL and that said FTL can be activated in seconds in some instances. Therefore, the Zerg have better FTL since they caught up to them.

There's nothing that outright states time dilation.

Your trying to force a contradiction when there isn't one.


The zerg open up wormholes, and they go through the wormholes, there is nothing to evolve. Kerrigan cannot seem to top the Overmind and create another being such as herself, but she can somehow top all his efforts at wormhole travel.

Seeing as wormhole travel is an unknown factor in how it is done and is capable of Cerebrates not part of the main hivemind, it has to do little with the Overmind as an individual. The ability since than has progressed since than, therefore the answer is the Zerg developed better FTL manipulations.

Leviathans are capable of Warp space travel as well, so we know that Void/wormhole manipulation en masse isn't the only kind of travel.

Gradius
09-24-2012, 11:25 AM
Seeing as that in SC2, doing some math with the Escape from Mar Sara scene that the Hyperion had around 1.5 million C speeds, its not that problematic.
What numbers did you use & where did you get them out of curiosity?


It also says a Miss-calculated Warp Jump can result in the Hyperion traveling millions of light years. 1) Quite possible Raynor doesn't know what he's talking about since it's just his thoughts. :P
2) Perhaps he means the destination gets set to millions of light years away, kind of like the navigational error that happened to the supercarriers.


If you care about verisimilitude at this point, your in the wrong place.Don't remind me. :P


We know that they have developed better FTL in that time seeing as how the original Korpulu trip was faster than the 60 year trip and they have developed better manipulations of Warp Space/Void than the Terrans at the modern time. How do we know the zerg developed better manipulations of warp space than the terrans? Also, modern terrans are technologically behind the Earth colonies that sent them there, so how is that relevant?


We know that the UED has faster FTL and that said FTL can be activated in seconds in some instances. Therefore, the Zerg have better FTL since they caught up to them.Do you see those stars, nebulae & the giant planet & moon in the background where the zerg "catch up to" the UED? Yeah, that's not hyperspace or FTL.


There's nothing that outright states time dilation.Obviously. Like I said, if you're fine with any one faction being able to traverse the entire galaxy in laughably insane speeds, when previous works of fiction have made it pretty clear that it takes a decent amount of time to get anywhere in the K-sector itself, then no, there's no problem. If you're fine with the fact the UED freezes their entire crew for every excursion they go on, again, no problem.

Your calculations showed the Hyperion traveling at 1.5 million c, yet it took it 2 weeks to reach Char in Queen of Blades. Must have received a hell of an upgrade! :D


Seeing as wormhole travel is an unknown factor in how it is done and is capable of Cerebrates not part of the main hivemind, it has to do little with the Overmind as an individual. The ability since than has progressed since than, therefore the answer is the Zerg developed better FTL manipulations.

Leviathans are capable of Warp space travel as well, so we know that Void/wormhole manipulation en masse isn't the only kind of travel.Do you have any external evidence in the lore that the zerg FTL capabilities have progressed? Aside from this one instance in HoTS when Blizzard suddenly decided that we now need to get to Zerus in ludicrous speeds because of their hard-on for childish fan-service.

Shadow Archon
09-24-2012, 12:23 PM
What numbers did you use & where did you get them out of curiosity?


2504

During the Escape from Mar Sara cinematic, we see the Hyperion jump from Mar Sara to another solar system. We know this because Mar Sara's sun is behind the Hyperion, and it jumps away in the opposite direction.

It takes nearly twelve seconds from "spinning" drives two & six. The vessel enters the rift at 0:44 and exits it at 0:48. While we see it jump out, we do not know which star it was jumping from in that shot. For a low end assuming a distance of 4.2421 light years, roughly the distance between Sol and Alpha Centauri, which is the closest solar system to earth at the moment, you get 1.060525 light years per second, or 91,629.36 light years per day, or 33,444,716.4 light years per year.

Most of this is speculation, but that, at the moment, is all we have.

Well, not one point five million, a little bit more, but you get the point.


1) Quite possible Raynor doesn't know what he's talking about since it's just his thoughts. :P

I would assume that the captain knows more about his ship and wouldn't be talking nonsense. :p


2) Perhaps he means the destination gets set to millions of light years away, kind of like the navigational error that happened to the supercarriers.

It wouldn't be a problem than. Or do we assume they can't disengage mid flight.


Don't remind me. :P

Oh, I will. :p

Remember, this is the fiction where terraforming accidents blow up planets, Terrans have the industry to rebuild the crust, mantle, and core of worlds purified in a single year, and Protoss ships put out more energy per energy blast than the Sun does every second. :p


How do we know the zerg developed better manipulations of warp space than the terrans?


“This”—Duke pointed at the screen—“is the work of an alien race, the Protoss. From what I’m being
told, they warped in from nowhere, closer to the planet than we would ever attempt.

The Zerg can arrive inside a planet's atmosphere with FTL, the Terrans' don't attempt to get that close.


Also, modern terrans are technologically behind the Earth colonies that sent them there, so how is that relevant?

Because they have developed better FTL than what the Terrans in the Korpulu sector has access to.


Do you see those stars, nebulae & the giant planet & moon in the background where the zerg "catch up to" the UED? Yeah, that's not hyperspace or FTL.

And? They had to have used it because they had the chance to. Otherwise, we assume that Dugalle's an idiot. Occam's Razor suggests he did use it, but it simply couldn't get him far enough away.

Drives can be used in seconds according to Starcraft 2 and uprising, so the fact that his superior FTL couldn't get him far enough away from the Zerg suggests that they have FTL to match.


Obviously. Like I said, if you're fine with any one faction being able to traverse the entire galaxy in laughably insane speeds, when previous works of fiction have made it pretty clear that it takes a decent amount of time to get anywhere in the K-sector itself, then no, there's no problem.

Well, most of those were either smaller ships or before the UED made an appearances. I don't see the problem there.

Anyways, its simply due to the lack of scale Blizzard has for the fiction, what with purification and Terrans being able to match the Protoss with no where near enough power in their weapons to do the job, it really makes you wonder exactly do they think about how much energy actually goes through a purification process, and the fact that these weapons don't instantly gib Protoss vessels. That and the magic acid.


If you're fine with the fact the UED freezes their entire crew for every excursion they go on, again, no problem.

Not every excursion. If your taking a two week journey and have a way to minimize power waste on awake people who don't have anything to do, why not use it?


Your calculations showed the Hyperion traveling at 1.5 million c, yet it took it 2 weeks to reach Char in Queen of Blades. Must have received a hell of an upgrade! :D

I think that the Korpulu Terrans managed to get their hands on a few UED FTL drives or that the Protoss really like Jimmy.


Do you have any external evidence in the lore that the zerg FTL capabilities have progressed?

External as from Metzen? No, but I do have some examples in the lore.


Thus, the Zerg swarms slowly made their
way towards the burgeoning worlds of
Humanity. The journey lasted for sixty years,
but eventually the massive, extended Zerg
Swarm reached the outskirts of the Terran
Sector of Koprulu.


Eventually, the warp-drive engines of the
four supercarriers reached critical meltdown.
After twenty-eight years of warp travel, the
huge ships emerged into real space near the
edge of a habitable star system. Some 60,000
light years from the Earth, their engines
destroyed and their life-support batteries
nearly exhausted, the ships engaged their
emergency protocols and plummeted towards
the nearest habitable worlds in the system.

Assuming the Terrans reverse engineered this Warp Jump tech, they had faster FTL at the time.

Now in Queen of Blades:


As the cerebrate swelled with pride, a great darkness descended upon the crater, a shadow of the mass that drifted into view high above them. Beyond the upper reaches of the planet’s dying atmosphere hung a massive storm, a swirl of orange and violet gases that spun around strange flickering lights. They moved faster and faster, the colors merging in their fury, until the center of the storm collapsed in upon itself, light and color giving way to a shadowy circle far darker then even the space hovering beyond.

“Now you have grown strong enough to bear the rigors of warp travel with the Swarm,” the Overmind stated, its words sending a thrum of power through the Swarm. “Thus we shall make our exit from this blasted world and secure the Chrysalis within the Hive Cluster upon the planet char.”

Going off of Starcraft:


Meanwhile, the entirety of the extended Zerg Swarm teleported through space-time and began its long awaited invasion of the hated Protoss Homeworld of Aiur.

The Zerg arrive almost instantly going from Tarsonis to Char and from Char to Auir, depending upon how you take "teleport," and generally how that word is used in the fiction, it means instantaneous transport. The Terrans took weeks, the Zerg didn't therefore Zerg > Terran FTL.


Aside from this one instance in HoTS when Blizzard suddenly decided that we now need to get to Zerus in ludicrous speeds because of their hard-on for childish fan-service.

I don't think that's a contradiction of itself going off of other examples.

Just to note, I'm a big die hard Doctor Who fan and an Anime Otaku, I care not for Verisimilitude or realism in fiction, so...yeah.

Gradius
09-24-2012, 01:11 PM
Well, not one point five million, a little bit more, but you get the point.
33 million c is just nuts. Dude. Raynor could cross the entire galaxy in one day. You are right though that this is speculation: what kind of time dilation does the BC undergo?


It wouldn't be a problem than. Or do we assume they can't disengage mid flight.We assume that they don't know where they are once they disengage. At which point they simply use some star-charting software & get back on course.


The Zerg can arrive inside a planet's atmosphere with FTL, the Terrans' don't attempt to get that close. That's talking about the protoss not the zerg bro. :P


Because they have developed better FTL than what the Terrans in the Korpulu sector has access to. They're...at different points in their evolutionary development. The terrans were just dumped off and forced to start from almost nothing. All this proves is that terrans had to work up to get to modest warp speeds just like zerg. It is in fact the koprulu terrans that have made faster progress than the zerg have.


And? They had to have used it because they had the chance to. Otherwise, we assume that Dugalle's an idiot. Occam's Razor suggests he did use it, but it simply couldn't get him far enough away.

Drives can be used in seconds according to Starcraft 2 and uprising, so the fact that his superior FTL couldn't get him far enough away from the Zerg suggests that they have FTL to match. More assumptions.
1) How do you know they weren't out of fuel?
2) How do you know Dugalle didn't lag behind to protect his fleet? We already know he was suicidal and that some of his ships are slower because they are stolen k-sector technology.


Well, most of those were either smaller ships or before the UED made an appearances. I don't see the problem there.So you figure the UED comes in and now everybody can travel across the galaxy at their whim, no longer restricted by the koprulu sector?


The Zerg arrive almost instantly going from Tarsonis to Char and from Char to Auir, depending upon how you take "teleport," and generally how that word is used in the fiction, it means instantaneous transport. The Terrans took weeks, the Zerg didn't therefore Zerg > Terran FTL.No. This is just more assumptions. We saw the zerg cinematic as they left for Aiur, and they didn't "teleport instantaneously", they use the wormholes they always did.

But hey, since I'm expected to prove everything beyond a shadow of a doubt, there's no reason you should be allowed to throw around flippant assumptions. SC lore has just received a slew of new plotholes with all this "traveling at a bajillion times the speed of light" nonsense. The protoss must really love Raynor is not an excuse.

Shadow Archon
09-24-2012, 01:45 PM
33 million c is just nuts. Dude. Raynor could cross the entire galaxy in one day.

Of course its crazy. Nonetheless, that's what happened. Even if you assumed it was only ten percent that number, its still millions of C.


You are right though that this is speculation: what kind of time dilation does the BC undergo?

I'm fine with that explanation. It just doesn't exist in the lore.


We assume that they don't know where they are once they disengage. At which point they simply use some star-charting software & get back on course.

IIRC, they have detected objects in Warp Space while not being in it themselves. Wouldn't that show that they can detect where they "pop out?"


That's talking about the protoss not the zerg bro. :P

I'm talking about the Zerg in Speed of Darkness that managed to FTL into the atmosphere, not the Protoss int hat example.


They're...at different points in their evolutionary development. The terrans were just dumped off and forced to start from almost nothing. All this proves is that terrans had to work up to get to modest warp speeds just like zerg. It is in fact the koprulu terrans that have made faster progress than the zerg have.

What? The Zerg went from 60 year FTL to faster than Terrans in under a hundred years. The Terrans started with the FTL tech in the first place when they crashed and reverse engineered from that. The Zerg developed on their own, while the Terrans had an example to go off of and the Zerg still developed faster.


More assumptions.
1) How do you know they weren't out of fuel?

Seeing as we have no idea if they even use a special type of fuel to propagate FTL rather than just their fusion reactors, that question can't be looked at because there's no idea about what fuel they use and have and such. If a past drive can function for years without refueling, than I don't see why they would have ran out of fuel.



2) How do you know Dugalle didn't lag behind to protect his fleet? We already know he was suicidal and that some of his ships are slower because they are stolen k-sector technology.

That would assume that each ship was set out to die. We know that none made it back. If even a few could do so, and the rest couldn't, than when they were overtaken, some of the ships could have very well taken their losses and left.

There's not enough info on the matter though due to the unknown nature of the battle, of how they died. All we know that UED FTL has a set speed and we have a Terran set speed from the past. No one inside the Sector remarks on it as special. While common sense would propose that the Terrans have inferior FTL tech, they may very well have close enough parity that such large distinctions aren't visible.

All I'm saying is that the Zerg have the FTL to reach Zerus in a reasonable time frame, which is fine to me but a problem to other people.


So you figure the UED comes in and now everybody can travel across the galaxy at their whim, no longer restricted by the koprulu sector?

Seeing as we don't even know how big the Korpulu sector is in relation to the galaxy, if they show us that it encompasses half the galaxy, I'm fine with that. Of course, I think the Protoss have been doing this far longer than the Terrans have and thus have superior FTL than the UED due to their mechanisms, but that's just me speculating.


No. This is just more assumptions. We saw the zerg cinematic as they left for Aiur, and they didn't "teleport instantaneously", they use the wormholes they always did.

Wormholes are instant. You go in one side and pop out the other like a door way. I'm not saying instant FTL like nBSG or Dune.


But hey, since I'm expected to prove everything beyond a shadow of a doubt,

Shifting the goal posts.

I'm not expecting you to prove "everything" beyond a shadow of doubt. I'm expecting you to prove time dilation, which isn't supported by canon. I actually like the idea, I just don't see anything that hints at it.



there's no reason you should be allowed to throw around flippant assumptions.

Flippant assumptions? I going off of how they say teleport and how that word is delivered in other sources, where it is instantaneous. This isn't flippant since I'm using other canon sources to show.


SC lore has just received a slew of new plotholes with all this "traveling at a bajillion times the speed of light" nonsense.

Not really a plot hole as its a lack of scale as technology/biology develops. This is certainly not as bad as Trek's FTL inconsistency and its not even a problem in of itself. .


The protoss must really love Raynor is not an excuse.

That was suppose to be a joke.

The thing is that the Terrans must have either developed better FTL in that time or have some UED drives being studied and as such is a reason for their FTL.

The point is, that sure, there could be an explanation of why long term travel is slower than short term. But its not a problem because we don't know the actual boundaries of the Sector and where everything is related to each other.

We don't where Zerus is except near the core. We don't know where the Korpulu sector is except 60,000 light years away from Earth and near the galaxy's boundary. That gives them a lot of way room to make sense of it.

The problem here is the Zerg's inability to travel to Zerus in a short time, which in of itself is no longer a problem considering the advances they have made. There's enough ambiguity in the events to have no contradictions in this matter.

Gradius
09-24-2012, 03:19 PM
Wormholes are instant. You go in one side and pop out the other like a door way. So it begs the question of how the zerg can improve on it in the first place. You still cannot show me what changed from when they entered the k sector and when they left. Kerrigan has demonstrated before that she is not as knowledgeable as the Overmind. Also, we don't know if zerg wormholes are exactly like Einstein-Rosen bridges. The SC wiki just calls them "gateways".


I'm expecting you to prove time dilation, which isn't supported by canon. Like I said a long time ago, I can only do that if we buy into the premise that Starcraft is an intelligent & realistic sci-fi, which we both already established that we don't, since whimsically traveling at a bajillion times the speed of light is apparently no-problemo.

Going to places such as Earth & Zerus should be beyond our reach. SC is about lone survivors battling it out on the galactic rim. Dugalle said "be reminded that if we fail in our mission here, not one of us will be going home". Clearly the process they used to get here in the first place was complicated and intensive, which is what I tried to show in the first place, but you're inclined to dismiss it since Blizzard now decided that everyone and their dog can travel at whatever speed they want! :-D

Here's a recap:


Zerg go from modest warp speeds of 60+ years to get to Zerus to weeks/months for no apparent reason.
To make sense of this you calculate from a cinematic that the hyperion can travel at the ludicrous speeds of 33 million times the speed of light, able to cross the galaxy in a day.
Everyone in the k-sector greatly improves their travel times after getting access to UED tech. Took 2 weeks to get to Char? Hell, now they have no reason to even be in the K-sector, just go back to earth. SC lore is a mess.


The problem here is the Zerg's inability to travel to Zerus in a short time, which in of itself is no longer a problem considering the advances they have made. There's enough ambiguity in the events to have no contradictions in this matter. In other words, we're expected to make the concession that the zerg miraculously increased their knowledge of warp space (despite having a less knowledgeable controller than before), for no better reason than the writers suddenly want to go to Zerus. Your "proof using canon sources" for this is that we can't prove it's not true. There's also your especially convincing argument that we can't prove the UED didn't run out of fuel. Sweet. I think we're crystal. :cool:

Shadow Archon
09-24-2012, 03:35 PM
So it begs the question of how the zerg can improve on it in the first place. You still cannot show me what changed from when they entered the k sector and when they left. Kerrigan has demonstrated before that she is not as knowledgeable as the Overmind.

The other explanation is that the 60 years was intentional. As in, he was building up his strength before his attack. Of course that is really a far off interpretation.

It could be a psionic enhancement from dealing with Terrans and Protoss. Queens being made from Kerrigan into psionic substitutes for Cerebrates implies some psionic dealings.


Also, we don't know if zerg wormholes are exactly like Einstein-Rosen bridges. The SC wiki just calls them "gateways".

We see them go in, and in the next very scene there at Auir. There's not a lot of leeway there.


Like I said a long time ago, I can only do that if we buy into the premise that Starcraft is an intelligent & realistic sci-fi, which we both already established that we don't, since whimsically traveling at a bajillion times the speed of light is apparently no-problemo.

Starcraft makes as much sense as Star Wars, Star Trek, and Stargate.


Going to places such as Earth & Zerus should be beyond our reach. SC is about lone survivors battling it out on the galactic rim.

Starcraft is a military sci-fi about the three races battling it out in the Korpulu sector. Its regards to the galactic rim are an unknown and its focus on such a small scale has been dealt with. We're now dealing with Hybrids intent on destroying everything, including the UED terrans. The scale has evolved.


Dugalle said "be reminded that if we fail in our mission here, not one of us will be going home". Clearly the process they used to get here in the first place was complicated and intensive

That isn't clear cut. It could very well be that the UED intended to execute them for failure, thus they couldn't return home.


which is what I tried to show in the first place, but you're inclined to dismiss it since Blizzard now decided that everyone and their dog can travel at whatever speed they want! :-D

Again, they care not for technical specifics. That's not my fault, its Blizzard, but since its canon, it is law no mater how stupid it is.


Here's a recap:


Zerg go from modest warp speeds of 60+ years to get to Zerus to weeks/months for no apparent reason.

Exponential evolution or simply the rise of the need for better FTL. If Zerg can potentially be perpetual motion machines (a much bigger offense in my mind) than highly differing FTL speeds in a short time is rather something not beyond them.


To make sense of this you calculate from a cinematic that the hyperion can travel at the ludicrous speeds of 33 million times the speed of light, able to cross the galaxy in a day.

And?



Everyone in the k-sector greatly improves their travel times after getting access to UED tech. Took 2 weeks to get to Char? Hell, now they have no reason to even be in the K-sector, just go back to earth. SC lore is a mess.


Even if FTL tech is that advance, there is a reason for them to not travel. Just because you can go that fast, doesn't mean you can propagate your power that well. Today, we have aircraft that can go around the world in hours, yet we still don't have nations that span continents. A similar aspect can be applied here.



In other words, we're expected to make the concession that the zerg miraculously increased their knowledge of warp space (despite having a less knowledgeable controller than before), for no better reason than the writers suddenly want to go to Zerus.

Or that the Zerg developed it by Psionic pursuits in humanity or that their FTL was always this fast to begin with and the 60 year trip was intentional. I agree the situation is sad in this affair, but its not a contradiction anymore than the Dominion holding off the Zerg where the Confederacy failed.


Your "proof using canon sources" for this is that we can't prove it's not true.

Uh, your ignoring what I pointed out earlier.


There's also your especially convincing argument that we can't prove the UED didn't run out of fuel.

Well, there's nothing that suggests they have a "special" fuel for warp drives. If a ship can sustain Warp Travel for over 28 years, I'm inclined to believe that they have the necessary technology to initiate warp travel just by going off of Fusion reactors, therefore needing fuel for FTL would be like needing fuel for your entire ship.


Sweet. I think we're crystal. :cool:

I don't think so.

Gradius
09-24-2012, 05:35 PM
We see them go in, and in the next very scene there at Auir. There's not a lot of leeway there.
No, we don't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp-W6icpCbs


Again, they care not for technical specifics. That's not my fault, its Blizzard, but since its canon, it is law no mater how stupid it is. Your 33 million c figure is most certainly not, as there are stars far closer together than 4 light years. Proxima & alpha centauri AB for example are .2 light years apart. Or you could have a binary system even closer together. How is 33 million times the speed of light an acceptable margin of error? You didn't have to come up with such an off-the-wall ridiculous number to make blizzard's idea seem less ridiculous by comparison.


Exponential evolution or simply the rise of the need for better FTL. If Zerg can potentially be perpetual motion machines (a much bigger offense in my mind) than highly differing FTL speeds in a short time is rather something not beyond them.Problems such as zerg units being perpetual motion machines are more easily dismissed because they are part of what require units to function in their core setting. Not that I know any examples of zerg being perpetual motion machines in lore, but still. Highly differing FTL speeds on the other hand break the suspension of disbelief in that they break the setting and allow people to go wherever the hell they want. Case in point:

DUKE
Earth Directorate? You mean to tell me you've come all the way out here from Earth?

Zeratul
United Earth Directorate? Raynor spoke of the distant Terran homeworld called Earth. These humans have come a long way to make war on us.

Yeah, not so distant anymore. Suspension of disbelief and realism just went down the shithole, but that's not a problem because Blizzard now caters to 12 year-olds.


Starcraft makes as much sense as Star Wars, Star Trek, and Stargate. I actually watched stargate a few months ago, and no, you can't compare wings of liberty's jolly cowboy time to stargate. Stargate's worst offense is that everyone on other planets speaks english, but the writers themselves said they made it that way because it would be pointless for the cast to spend episodes learning how to translate alien.


Well, there's nothing that suggests they have a "special" fuel for warp drives. If a ship can sustain Warp Travel for over 28 years, I'm inclined to believe that they have the necessary technology to initiate warp travel just by going off of Fusion reactors, therefore needing fuel for FTL would be like needing fuel for your entire ship. Not. The. Point. How do you know his FTL capabilities do not require some external structure which Kerrigan had already destroyed, which would explain why she let him leave in the first place? How do you know Dugalle even started up his FTL engines? Of course it would be stupid of him not to, so why isn't he in hyperspace? If all you need is fusion reactors what the hell is he doing in the middle of nowhere? Seriously, all we're given is a cinematic of him getting chased down in real-space. It takes nothing less than wanton speculation to go from here to the idea that "the swarm has faster FTL than the UED."

We have a direct example of the journey to Zerus in lore. It's 60+ years. We have no examples of zerg getting access to different FTL technology. HoTS implies that they can now do it in weeks/months. It's a retcon, period, unless you start desperately grasping for straws.

You can't argue against someone who's only tactics are to make wild concessions and whose only stance is "you can't prove that it's not true". This is just like the Overmind retcon. Nobody could prove that he wasn't secretly being a slave mind-controlled by an external evil power but that he was secretly a good guy all along. It breaks continuity, realism, and therefore suspension of disbelief. You need realism and suspension of disbelief to offset the fantastical sci-fi setting and increase immersion.

I can't prove that Zeratul isn't Chuck Testa. I can't prove that the Xel'Naga don't look like teletubbies. Tell me ShadowArchon, why do you promote the molestation of starcraft lore? Why do you endorse god-awful storytelling? I'm not talking about just the technical aspect of warp drive speeds here, but the breaking of continuity & realism.

Hawki
09-24-2012, 06:15 PM
Seriously? The worst offense of Stargate is the universal English thing? I'm not saying Stargate is a bad series (bar Infinity...oh, God...) but...ugh.

And no, I'm not going to weigh into this discussion. It lost any semblence of normality when you played the "everyone who likes this is stupid" card.

Shadow Archon
09-24-2012, 08:38 PM
No, we don't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp-W6icpCbs

Yes we do. :rolleyes:

This is the image that follows that video:

http://www.wallforever.info/thumbs/zerg_invasion_of_aiur-t2.jpg


Your 33 million c figure is most certainly not, as there are stars far closer together than 4 light years. Proxima & alpha centauri AB for example are .2 light years apart.

Alright, .2 light years apart in four seconds. That's twenty seconds per light year. A minute for three light years. An hour for one-hundred and eighty. A day for 4,320. A year for 1,576,800 light years. That's 1,576,800 C there, still in the whole "ridiculous" territory you painted earlier.


Or you could have a binary system even closer together.

Of course you have proof that it is a binary system right?


How is 33 million times the speed of light an acceptable margin of error?

Because its the closest number to Earth for a comparison. Seeing as there is no stated number, it was simply an assumption to get one. Even if you assume .2 light years, its still a million c.


You didn't have to come up with such an off-the-wall ridiculous number to make blizzard's idea seem less ridiculous by comparison.

Wow, you really don't know any of the other numbers from other events of Starcraft tech do you?

You think this one is bad? Bah, you don't even talk about the ludicrousness that is Mar Sara or Korhal. There's off the wall numbers everywhere in Starcraft, and all of them in some ways "break" the story. If you want "perfection," go somewhere else. The story is still good.


Problems such as zerg units being perpetual motion machines are more easily dismissed because they are part of what require units to function in their core setting. Not that I know any examples of zerg being perpetual motion machines in lore, but still.

Oh, so only when science doesn't work in certain ways you don't like is something that upsets you?


Highly differing FTL speeds on the other hand break the suspension of disbelief in that they break the setting and allow people to go wherever the hell they want.

And? FTL has always been speed of plot or random numbers thrown out. It has never been a crucial element of Starcraft, not in the long shot.


Case in point:

DUKE
Earth Directorate? You mean to tell me you've come all the way out here from Earth?

Zeratul
United Earth Directorate? Raynor spoke of the distant Terran homeworld called Earth. These humans have come a long way to make war on us.

In terms of power projection over a wide amount of territory, it is a long way. Not necessarily alone in travel time, but how they project their territory. Still fits there.


Yeah, not so distant anymore. Suspension of disbelief and realism just went down the shithole.

Bullcrap. Realism went out in Starcraft 1. Suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with FTL in a sci-fi setting, well, at least to me.


but that's not a problem because Blizzard now caters to 12 year-olds.

Oh, insulting those that like something you hate? In my mind, that sounds quite like Poisoning the Well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well) to me. If you don't like it, leave it at that. Insulting people who like it is quite silly and immature.


I actually watched stargate a few months ago, and no, you can't compare wings of liberty's jolly cowboy time to stargate. Stargate's worst offense is that everyone on other planets speaks english, but the writers themselves said they made it that way because it would be pointless for the cast to spend episodes learning how to translate alien.

Oh, bullcrap.

Let me point out to you the 200 megaton Hatak blasts and the dynamite Hatak blasts from time to time. Or the Zat's disintegration factor. Or the fact that an alien race was defeated by modern day America through deus ex machinas here and there later in the series. Or the blatant disregard for canon in the end of Atlantis. Or the marty stu doctor Mckay/Carter doing bogus science.

Really, Wings of Liberty is better by far than Stargate SG-1 at its worse and IMHO better just a bit at its best.


Not. The. Point. How do you know his FTL capabilities do not require some external structure which Kerrigan had already destroyed, which would explain why she let him leave in the first place? How do you know Dugalle even started up his FTL engines? Of course it would be stupid of him not to, so why isn't he in hyperspace? If all you need is fusion reactors what the hell is he doing in the middle of nowhere? Seriously, all we're given is a cinematic of him getting chased down in real-space. It takes nothing less than wanton speculation to go from here to the idea that "the swarm has faster FTL than the UED."

Wow, so your response to my speculation going by what we know which helps reconcile the Zerus trip that hasn't happened yet is more baseless speculation just to prove there's a contradiction just to prove how "bad" Blizzard is at story writing?

I think you missed the point. The point is to reconcile the two incidents with canon, not realism or "what I say could have happened is more important than what you say could have happened."


We have a direct example of the journey to Zerus in lore. It's 60+ years. We have no examples of zerg getting access to different FTL technology. HoTS implies that they can now do it in weeks/months. It's a retcon, period, unless you start desperately grasping for straws.

Bull crap. Its not a retcon seeing as it can be resolved with natural tech/biology progression. If it was a Voyager example, I would agree, but it isn't. Your the one grasping for straws to say it is, assuming that the Zerg haven't progressed at all even though there whole motto is to become better. I mean, these are the bugs that become completely immune to Absolute Zero by eating space yetis. Do you really think they couldn't overcome this obstacle?


You can't argue against someone who's only tactics are to make wild concessions and whose only stance is "you can't prove that it's not true". This is just like the Overmind retcon. Nobody could prove that he wasn't secretly being a slave mind-controlled by an external evil power but that he was secretly a good guy all along. It breaks continuity, realism, and therefore suspension of disbelief. You need realism and suspension of disbelief to offset the fantastical sci-fi setting and increase immersion.

Of course, one, I take the Overmind event different than you do so to not ruin the character due to my interpretation, and second, am providing events where the Zerg have the FTL to do the required trip, and have better FTL than the Terrans who could also make the trip.

To me, the continuity, realism, and suspension of disbelief is just fine.


I can't prove that Zeratul isn't Chuck Testa. I can't prove that the Xel'Naga don't look like teletubbies.

And? Your changing the argument. Your stating that I'm committing a Proving a negative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence) fallacy, when I'm not.

I'm going by canon instances of tech/bio progression that simply explain the Zerus trip perfectly to me. If you don't like that answer, make another review that I disagree with. You have that right.


Tell me ShadowArchon, why do you promote the molestation of starcraft lore? Why do you endorse god-awful storytelling? I'm not talking about just the technical aspect of warp drive speeds here, but the breaking of continuity & realism.

I don't. Apparently, its your opinion of the story. My opinion is that it is a good story that isn't any more awful than a Doctor Who arc. Strict Realism is out the door when its sci-fi for me, and I let myself be immersed in it.

Gradius
09-24-2012, 10:04 PM
And no, I'm not going to weigh into this discussion. It lost any semblence of normality when you played the "everyone who likes this is stupid" card.
I've noticed that conversations with WoL story defenders are similar to conversations with creationists in that I'm criticizing something sacred and that their last defense ends up being:
1) You can't prove that I'm wrong.
2) You're being offensive.

This is exactly why I stopped coming here. *facepalm


Seriously? The worst offense of Stargate is the universal English thing? I'm not saying Stargate is a bad series (bar Infinity...oh, God...) but...ugh.
Are you implying that Stargate Infinity fans are somehow...stupid? How dare you? :0

See, I can do it. Shit's annoying & needs to stop. Thanks. But seriously, you seem like a reasonable guy so you should know what a heated debate looks like (hint: this isn't even remotely it). Don't like it, oh well, I'm getting extremely tired of accommodating you people. \_(ツ)_/


Yes we do. :rolleyes:

This is the image that follows that video:

http://www.wallforever.info/thumbs/zerg_invasion_of_aiur-t2.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/iclchu.jpg

I'll let you tell me why showing a picture after a video does not prove that zero time has passed between that point.



Wow, you really don't know any of the other numbers from other events of Starcraft tech do you?

You think this one is bad? Bah, you don't even talk about the ludicrousness that is Mar Sara or Korhal. There's off the wall numbers everywhere in Starcraft, and all of them in some ways "break" the story. If you want "perfection," go somewhere else. The story is still good. Details that few people will ever see like population & protoss purification numbers is one thing. "What the hell are we doing here on Zerus in the second expo of SC2?" is another. If you can't understand the difference between the two then I don't know what to say.


Oh, so only when science doesn't work in certain ways you don't like is something that upsets you?

And? FTL has always been speed of plot or random numbers thrown out. It has never been a crucial element of Starcraft, not in the long shot. Obviously everything I said just went over your head. Again, what separates sci-fi from fantasy is the idea that it's based on science and therefore it could be real. Unlike fantasy, sci-fi has less willing suspension of disbelief. Its viewers expect slightly more immersion and therefore more attention to realism. It's not just FTL itself that is important to the maintenance of realism & suspension of disbelief, but the maintenance of the setting.

In SC, Zerus was clearly established as ancient history, and, being in the fiery galactic core, probably unreachable now after all these ages. The same way that we have no business going back to earth, we have no business going back to zerus. That the conflict has broadened because of the hybrids is not an excuse to go back to Zerus, it's just an excuse to win the conflict in SC2.


Bullcrap. Realism went out in Starcraft 1.So what? Seriously, so what? Everyone keeps repeating this inane adage as if it's supposed to be an excuse for WoL's shortcomings.


Oh, bullcrap.

Let me point out to you the 200 megaton Hatak blasts and the dynamite Hatak blasts from time to time. Or the Zat's disintegration factor. Or the fact that an alien race was defeated by modern day America through deus ex machinas here and there later in the series. Or the blatant disregard for canon in the end of Atlantis. Or the marty stu doctor Mckay/Carter doing bogus science.

Really, Wings of Liberty is better by far than Stargate SG-1 at its worse and IMHO better just a bit at its best. Is that it?
1) Hatak blasts & Zats. Same reason I don't complain about the impossibility of the zerg race. It's consistent, so who cares?
2) DEMs - agreed.
3) Dr. Carter. Beats the hell out of Stetman's bogus science. "Survival of the fittest on the cellular level" gave me a good lol.
4) I'm like 80% through SG1, so no clue about Atlantis.

I still think SG1 is superior in that at the very least it knows how to do war humor without making a total joke of itself.


Bull crap. Its not a retcon seeing as it can be resolved with natural tech/biology progression. If it was a Voyager example, I would agree, but it isn't. Your the one grasping for straws to say it is, assuming that the Zerg haven't progressed at all even though there whole motto is to become better. I mean, these are the bugs that become completely immune to Absolute Zero by eating space yetis. Do you really think they couldn't overcome this obstacle?I understand your position perfectly. You want to reconcile plot holes. At the very least I would appreciate it if you'd demonstrate some acknowledgement/understanding of my argument. That being: I want to highlight the fact that Blizzard doesn't give a damn and likely never thought any of this through in the first place. This is not the way natural story progression works, but I already made that clear. There are multiple writers at Blizzard that get paid to think about the story for months, and yet retcons still keep coming out.


Of course, one, I take the Overmind event different than you do so to not ruin the character due to my interpretation, and second, am providing events where the Zerg have the FTL to do the required trip, and have better FTL than the Terrans who could also make the trip.

To me, the continuity, realism, and suspension of disbelief is just fine.That's because you willfully ignore evidence to the contrary, like a direct quote of the length of the trip to Zerus, or the fact that the UED fleet is chased down in real space and likely never got the opportunity to get into hyperspace in the first place. Which is fine, it helps you enjoy the story better, but I hope you understand why some people would get annoyed at the totally unnatural story progression.

There is no need to argue over this when it's obvious that the people working on SC2 are taking it in a totally different direction and really could care less about making a true successor to the BW story. This fact comes through in dubious retcons, unnatural story progression and bad science. But like I said before, if the intent is to create a new story, why not start a new franchise? Again I ask, what is the point in molesting the SC lore? o.O

Shadow Archon
09-24-2012, 10:32 PM
I'll let you tell me why showing a picture after a video does not prove that zero time has passed between that point.

It doesn't prove that days or weeks have either. The point is, there's leeway for Zerus travel time to be perfectly reasonable.

Details that few people will ever see like population & protoss purification numbers is one thing. "What the hell are we doing here on Zerus in the second expo of SC2?" is another. If you can't understand the difference between the two then I don't know what to say.

I don't see any difference between the two seeing as how intimate I get with the numbers.


Obviously everything I said just went over your head. Again, what separates sci-fi from fantasy is the idea that it's based on science and therefore it could be real. Unlike fantasy, sci-fi has less willing suspension of disbelief. Its viewers expect slightly more immersion and therefore more attention to realism. It's not just FTL itself that is important to the maintenance of realism & suspension of disbelief, but the maintenance of the setting.

Well, this is where we disagree.


Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Throw in space biology and we have salsa.

To me, I don't care about such strict realism if there's a crazy tech progression to explain it. This seems to be leaning more into opinions than canon though, so I'm not going to argue it.


In SC, Zerus was clearly established as ancient history, and, being in the fiery galactic core, probably unreachable now after all these ages. The same way that we have no business going back to earth, we have no business going back to zerus. That the conflict has broadened because of the hybrids is not an excuse to go back to Zerus, it's just an excuse to win the conflict in SC2.

Really? I thought Zerus was always a possibility to come back in the story. Again, opinions here. Where does " we don't have the business to go back to Zerus" come from? Metzen made it, he can do whatever he pleases with it.


So what? Seriously, so what? Everyone keeps repeating this inane adage as if it's supposed to be an excuse for WoL's shortcomings.

I don't see the shortcomings. You seem to want realism and world building, but as far as I'm concerned realism wasn't there to begin with. You make it sound like WoL broke the suspension. To me, believing it in the first place in Starcraft made my suspension fine for WoL.

The only thing I hated in it was the canon choice for Haven due to its stupidity and the VA change for Tassadar. I can personally interpret everything else to fit my Starcraft image just fine.



Is that it?
1) Hatak blasts & Zats. Same reason I don't complain about the impossibility of the zerg race. It's consistent, so who cares?

http://i.qkme.me/35hq1d.jpg

A stick of dynamite and a 200 megaton blast are never equal. The inconsistency is mind boggling there my pal. Not meaning to poke fun, but jeez does plot save SG-1 all the freakin' time.


2) DEMs - agreed.

Okay.


3) Dr. Carter. Beats the hell out of Stetman's bogus science. "Survival of the fittest on the cellular level" gave me a good lol.

Sure, in biology. Wait until later, with McKay blowing up a solar system, or his DEMs in Atlantis, or how Carter manages to save the day here and there later on.


4) I'm like 80% through SG1, so no clue about Atlantis.

That explains it.


I still think SG1 is superior in that at the very least it knows how to do war humor without making a total joke of itself.

Opinions. I think Starcraft is more serious than Stargate IMHO.


I understand your position perfectly. You want to reconcile plot holes. At the very least I would appreciate it if you'd demonstrate some acknowledgement/understanding of my argument.

Okay. I understand your opinion on Starcraft. You have a deep care for verisimilitude and certain constant elements. You have that right. I, due to my background, do not think the same way towards fiction.

Your also right about Blizzard. They don't care about the technical specifics in sci-fi and just label out a number here and there. They only care about the core of their story to a point, and even than there's problems. Tech works via plot, which is why Starcraft is a sponge soft science fiction.

I don't care about any of this though. I love it anyways, just like Doctor Who and animes. I reconcile what I can, generally the easy main points, and laugh at the side ones. (Restoring Mar Sara? In a year? When it was blasted down to the core? What a great laugh!)

We just have differing opinions and attitudes toward it. I like WoL, you don't. That's all she wrote.


That being: I want to highlight the fact that Blizzard doesn't give a damn and likely never thought any of this through in the first place.

Let me point you Here. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScifiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale)


This is not the way natural story progression works, but I already made that clear. There are multiple writers at Blizzard that get paid to think about the story for months, and yet retcons still keep coming out.

At least the retcons are semi-debatable. I can get away with explanations that leave no retcons for my personal fanon, and I will argue it with those that think they are simply retcons. :cool:


That's because you willfully ignore evidence to the contrary, like a direct quote of the length of the trip to Zerus,

Which was a past version of the Zerg and no longer relevant to the Current Zerg.


or the fact that the UED fleet is chased down in real space and likely never got the opportunity to get into hyperspace in the first place.

Likely is not definite. They could have, they couldn't have. If they did, it explains Zerus easily. Why bother with a contradiction when ambiguity can fix it. ;)


Which is fine, it helps you enjoy the story better, but I hope you understand why some people would get annoyed at the totally unnatural story progression.

I understand that.


There is no need to argue over this when it's obvious that the people working on SC2 are taking it in a totally different direction and really could care less about making a true successor to the BW story. This fact comes through in dubious retcons, unnatural story progression and bad science. But like I said before, if the intent is to create a new story, why not start a new franchise? Again I ask, what is the point in molesting the SC lore? o.O

Simple. Disregard current canon if you don't like it. Make up your own fanon and believe it.

I have differing opinions, so do you. Do what makes you happy with the story regardless of the writers.