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The_Blade
08-13-2012, 09:17 PM
A0dagCjg2SM

Noctis
08-14-2012, 12:49 AM
carriers woulda been useful....

Rake
08-14-2012, 03:42 AM
Carriers would have probably made him loose faster. The reason they are being pulled is they go from underpowered to overpowered too quickly. So they are set to be underpowered so they don't unbalance the game.

Hawki
08-14-2012, 05:57 AM
I'll get this out from the start that I'm hardly an expert on multiplayer tactics, so if I say something incredibly stupid...well, you've been warned in advance.

That being said, concerning the issue of carriers, I think that their inclusion would kind of be an overlap. For long range stuff, we've got the Tempest. For close air-to-air battles, there's the Phoenix-which I think the protoss player could have built in the game to counter the Vikings, but I could be wrong. The carrier probably occupies a middle ground of sorts between these two units, but considering how the units of the game often fit niches, this could be a case of overlap.

I've also noticed that in regards to protoss airpower, void rays don't seem to be being built much. Maybe their base harass has been taken over by the Oracle and Tempest. Either way, they seem to be potentially redundant.

Blazur
08-14-2012, 07:14 AM
Was that the first time David Kim has ever lost in a battle report?

Also, the Oracle...holy hell what a great unit that is. Seems like a no brainer to build that thing every game and just constantly go in for mineral harass.

Jconant
08-14-2012, 10:10 AM
It seems to me tho that if terran goes mech + vikings, protoss doesn't have anything to effectively counter it. Mass immortal?

Kknewkles
08-14-2012, 11:22 AM
This BR is awful. Who thought this would pass as one knows nothing about the game.
That was David Kim? Wow, he must have a head trauma or two. Army placement sucked as hard as I've ever seen Starcraft. Tempests flying around without any cover, shooting whatever they want, and not just low-priority targets, he even almost killed his own Tempest, that's how messed up his micro was.
I've never been so ashamed of being Protoss in my life, this is a humiliation that can only be cleared with blood.

Blazur
08-14-2012, 12:18 PM
It seems to me tho that if terran goes mech + vikings, protoss doesn't have anything to effectively counter it. Mass immortal?

Investing so heavily in the tempest was probably the nail in the coffin in this game. They probably were asked to use many of the newer units to test balance and produce a worthy game for a BR, but the Tempest was too out of position to be useful in this game it seemed.

DemolitionSquid
08-14-2012, 12:28 PM
It seems to me tho that if terran goes mech + vikings, protoss doesn't have anything to effectively counter it. Mass immortal?

Lets take the basic "mech" composition we see now in WoL. Hellions (now Battle Hellions), Tanks, a couple Thors, Vikings to spot, still a handy sum of biological Marines, and a few Ghosts for EMP. Your worry is the addition of the Warhound to that mix. What we need to remember is that every Warhound Terran build is less resources they have towards the other units in the composition. A Warhound is likely equal in cost to 4 Marines, 2 Vikings or 1 Siege Tank. Those are units they'll no longer have in their army. The more the Terran focuses their army into the Warhounds GTG anti-armor role, the less versatile and more vulnerable they become. Not enough Battle Hellions and Tanks, and Zealots run it over. Not enough Vikings and a Phoenix/Void Ray combo crushes them. Not enough ghosts, and High Templar/Archon hurts.

The mech scenario you seem to be worried about is a relatively pure mix of Battle Hellion, Tank, Warhound, Thor, and Viking. This will mean he'll have very few Marines and even fewer Ghosts. The best counter to this would obviously be Phoenix/Void Ray, and if you've gone Starport I don't see how this composition could really cause you much trouble. Worst case scenario is clearly if you've already invested into Gateway/Robo. You're fearing that the Warhounds will tear apart your Stalkers and Immortals, who would normally snipe Vikings and tank the siege shots. Without Stalkers, the Vikings will decimate your Collossi. Tanks will snipe your Sentries and High Templar. The new Battle Hellions will be chewing through your Zealots. It appears at first glance the only viable unit here is the Archon. This scenario intrigues me, and I believe I have a theoretically viable solution for you.

The goal is to exploit mech's greatest weakness - lack of mobility, in the most cost efficient way possible. I believe this can achieved by abusing the new immobility of the Battle Hellion. By transforming to "Battle Mode," they trade up mobility for decreased movement speed, a bit of extra health, and a shorter, stronger flame. Their transformation time appears to be even longer than a Siege Tank's. This makes them excellent targets for Psionic Storm. I think possibly even better targets than Marines. They have more hitpoints, but they lack anywhere near the micro of Marines with or without Stim, and cannot be healed by Medivacs. Any SCV's or Mules near the Battle Hellions to repair them will be decimated by Psionic Storm as well. By opening up a hole in the Terran's play through destroying their Battle Hellions with Storm, a Zealot/Archon force should easily handle the remaining Warhounds, Thors, and Tanks. As a side note, Vikings are only good against your Colossus and fall in a fray with Zealots, so its in your best interest to encourage your enemy to build many Vikings by only building a few Colossi, which is a strategy we already use.

Hopefully this analysis will make the situation a bit more clear. I anticipate a mech army that loses its Battle Hellons (or builds none) and that trades in Warhounds for less Tanks will be just as, if not more, vulnerable to a Zealot/Archon based army than the mech we see now.

Noctis
08-14-2012, 12:29 PM
my initial comment was to troll, on a serious note: yes this game is quite embarrassing. It's like they told Kim to be all flashy regardless of it being smart. mech + vikings is a tricky combo. im not savvy enough to know an effective air counter for vikings in this situation. VR's are in threat of being under utilized if people chose to ignore them. however i think a solid strat would be to mix in tempests with VR's. tempests dont do rapid dmg like vr's, so they could do heavy seige damage from afar while the mass vr's swoop in for the in your face is a big ass beam. as for the oracle - it will be a standard toss unit, atleast 1-2 for harass, 1 with the army. i assume though making cannons, spores, or turrets will be an effective deterrent for harass.

side note: kknewkles....is that ME you're quoting in your sig?!

GnaReffotsirk
08-14-2012, 01:58 PM
Do high templars get bonus vs armored in HotS? I think the protoss needs more non-mechanical/robotic units. Not sure, but it could at least encourage the Terrans to shift from mech to bio after every battle.

What I'm hoping to see is a design that's not so much about losing one army and GG, but rather more skirmishes and shifting in unit composition.

DemolitionSquid
08-14-2012, 02:19 PM
Do high templars get bonus vs armored in HotS? I think the protoss needs more non-mechanical/robotic units. Not sure, but it could at least encourage the Terrans to shift from mech to bio after every battle.

What I'm hoping to see is a design that's not so much about losing one army and GG, but rather more skirmishes and shifting in unit composition.

If your post was standalone: High Templars still have no real attack. Personally I'm content with Protoss having mostly mechanical units, to counterpoint Zerg having all biological and Terran having a mix. The division between light and armored is more important. I agree about hoping to see less NR20 style death-balls.


If you were replying to my last post: Storm does 80 damage and ignores armor, Battle Hellions have 135 HP, so my hypothesis in the other post that they are good targets for Storm is solid. Archons are only Psionic and Massive, so they completely negate Hellion bonus vs light, Warhound Haywire anti-mechanical, and Thor and Tank bonus vs armored. This makes them excellent versus Factory based play.

Carsickness
08-14-2012, 04:24 PM
Playing this match up in the HoTS custom map on B.net is hard. I struggled as a Toss player to counter the Mech of the Terran.

Naturally I figured Immortals would be the counter, but they just seemed to melt to the war hound.
Archons didn't fair too well either as they where so huge in size that they didn't have the surface area needed to take on the equally as large units in the new Terran mech death ball.
It's going to be interesting to see the tactics the pros can come up with in this match up.

DemolitionSquid
08-14-2012, 05:42 PM
Playing this match up in the HoTS custom map on B.net is hard. I struggled as a Toss player to counter the Mech of the Terran.

Naturally I figured Immortals would be the counter, but they just seemed to melt to the war hound.
Archons didn't fair too well either as they where so huge in size that they didn't have the surface area needed to take on the equally as large units in the new Terran mech death ball.
It's going to be interesting to see the tactics the pros can come up with in this match up.

The Archon issue surprises me. All the attack and defense stats are in favor of the Archon. Is EMP still the problem?

Carsickness
08-15-2012, 06:39 AM
The Archon issue surprises me. All the attack and defense stats are in favor of the Archon. Is EMP still the problem?

No, EMP never came into play in the games. it was the sheer size of both the Archon and Terran Mech units.
The Terran unit size minimized Archon splash damage, while the size of the Archon them selves meant that the amount of units actually doing damage was limited as well.

Though after watching this battle report, it's interesting to see how well Air units did in the match up. Maybe i'll try that.

Jconant
08-15-2012, 03:26 PM
It looks like if toss focused more on getting void rays as well as tempests, they would have overtaken the mech army; the terrans did not have a strong anti air presence at any one time that could have countered a fleet of voids.

DemolitionSquid
08-15-2012, 03:51 PM
It looks like if toss focused more on getting void rays as well as tempests, they would have overtaken the mech army; the terrans did not have a strong anti air presence at any one time that could have countered a fleet of voids.

Clearly, but its not like tech-switching so heavily so quickly would have been possible.

Cotcan
08-16-2012, 02:27 PM
I said this in another tread, so I'll say it here too. When Terran goes mech they have to have vikings, thors, and/or marines (and now Widow Mines). If they don't have enough of those an air army can just take out the mech army no problem. Remember that the Warhound is just anti-ground, meaning that phenoix (using their gravitation beam), vr, and now the tempests, along with any orcales, you could do some serious damage to the mech army.

It would be very hard for a terran player to get a pure, perfectly mixed mech army that could take on large air armies as well. Thors are a costly unit, move slow, and fire at a slow rate. In order to be effective, you would need at least 2-3 thors, which would drop the amount of tanks, Warhounds, hellions, etc that you could have. Doing vikings could work, but the amount needed would seriously drop the amount of mech units.

The best way would be to go with marines, they are cheep, mobile, so they can take on air units when the mech army is attacked. As said before though, they are weak to storm, and the new hellions would also be weak to it as well. Widow mines would have to be planted first, and with some good micro from the toss player, would do little damage.

Also toss can exploit the immobility of mech by using orcales to harass, dropping in some warp prisms, or simply attacking on multiple fronts. It will be interesting to see how mech eventually ends up. If its with bio or starport support, or maybe just a mix of each.

TheEconomist
08-19-2012, 08:23 AM
David Kim just doesn't seem too good anymore. Guess that's what happens when you actually have played the game this time.

Pr0nogo
08-19-2012, 07:05 PM
There was a lot of talk about how these things were rigged to show off the new units, and not to show off actual strategies that would work. It's just a lot more obvious now than it was in WoL (look at the Raven-centered battle report).

Visions of Khas
08-21-2012, 09:34 AM
It seemed pretty obvious to me that they're just showing off the new units, so there isn't much sense in bashing these reports. I'm just worried about Terran v Protoss matches now. It seems Psi storms and Immortals will pretty much be the order of the day against the Terran mech build, doing away with the diverse unit formations Blizz wants to see used.

RamiZ
08-22-2012, 04:31 AM
It seemed pretty obvious to me that they're just showing off the new units, so there isn't much sense in bashing these reports. I'm just worried about Terran v Protoss matches now. It seems Psi storms and Immortals will pretty much be the order of the day against the Terran mech build, doing away with the diverse unit formations Blizz wants to see used.
We still don't know that yet. A lot of things will change, nothing is final. Currently, Warhounds are too good for their cost even vs. non-mechanical targets, they can even kite Immortals, and win vs. them alone because of Haywire missiles that aren't affected by hardened shield.

The way I see it, Colossi with Charglots and Void Rays/Tempests will probably be a lot better composition to deal with mech.

Noctis
08-22-2012, 10:49 AM
i feel like immortals need some kind of buff with the way things are, idk why its just a feeling. they seem underutilized in the overall game these days

RamiZ
08-22-2012, 04:34 PM
i feel like immortals need some kind of buff with the way things are, idk why its just a feeling. they seem underutilized in the overall game these days
I disagree, if anything, they need to be nerfed vs. armored units. If you get few of them, you can forget about everything that is armored. I know they are costly, but come on, if you get like 3-4 of them early with Sentries, the Zerg can just rush to Infestors, or Mutas to be able to deal with them, because even if you have like 50 Roaches, you can't get to them because of Forcefields and/or the rest of the army, and your Roaches just melts away.

There are even Immortal + Sentry timings in PvZ, where pros have a lot of trouble dealing with them.

In PvT, any kind of Mech(Tank) play is pretty much impossible because of them and Chargelots. The only time where I see Siege Tanks in TvP is when Protoss go for expand first, and Terran go for 1-1-1, one base Play, and go for all-in with Marines, Tanks and Banshees(or not even 1-1-1, but just Marines + Tanks all-in). And even then, if Protoss manage to get 1 or 2 Immortals, it is pretty much over. That is at least how I feel about this unit.

DemolitionSquid
08-22-2012, 05:35 PM
I disagree, if anything, they need to be nerfed vs. armored units. If you get few of them, you can forget about everything that is armored. I know they are costly, but come on, if you get like 3-4 of them early with Sentries, the Zerg can just rush to Infestors, or Mutas to be able to deal with them, because even if you have like 50 Roaches, you can't get to them because of Forcefields and/or the rest of the army, and your Roaches just melts away.

There are even Immortal + Sentry timings in PvZ, where pros have a lot of trouble dealing with them.

In PvT, any kind of Mech(Tank) play is pretty much impossible because of them and Chargelots. The only time where I see Siege Tanks in TvP is when Protoss go for expand first, and Terran go for 1-1-1, one base Play, and go for all-in with Marines, Tanks and Banshees(or not even 1-1-1, but just Marines + Tanks all-in). And even then, if Protoss manage to get 1 or 2 Immortals, it is pretty much over. That is at least how I feel about this unit.

Your scenarios are all early-mid game, whereas Noctis didn't specifically say when he feels Immortals are weak - all game, early, mid, or late. What is your stance on Immortals in late game compositions, just so we have all the bases covered? There may be room for a late game Immortal upgrade.

The_Blade
08-22-2012, 06:02 PM
blink on immortals :D

Caliban113
08-22-2012, 07:00 PM
immortal warp-in :)

Noctis
08-22-2012, 07:25 PM
Your scenarios are all early-mid game, whereas Noctis didn't specifically say when he feels Immortals are weak - all game, early, mid, or late. What is your stance on Immortals in late game compositions, just so we have all the bases covered? There may be room for a late game Immortal upgrade.

i apologize, it was a general comment indeed but i would say i notice it more in late-game. than mid/early game. i feel like people get immortals initially then ditch them for further tech.

DemolitionSquid
08-22-2012, 07:50 PM
i apologize, it was a general comment indeed but i would say i notice it more in late-game. than mid/early game. i feel like people get immortals initially then ditch them for further tech.

Ok, so, what solutions would you suggest? Is the problem solvable with an upgrade such as reduce damage to shields from 10 to 5 (which is obviously OP and just an example, so calm down)? is the problem more based around the other units in the matchup that could need fixing, for example Immortals being bad in PvT because EMP is too powerful so perhaps nerf EMP more (which is, again, obviously broken and just an example).

Noctis
08-22-2012, 08:28 PM
i think nerfing other things in order to make the immortal more attractive would be like poking a beehive, one unit cannot demand a change to many others. however, the idea of creating an upgrade for the immortal is appealing. maybe provide a late game upgrade to immortal shields so they can stand up to medium/light damage somewhat better? it would make them more versatile in late game survival...but as i type this i fear it would be OP.

RamiZ
08-23-2012, 08:12 AM
Your scenarios are all early-mid game, whereas Noctis didn't specifically say when he feels Immortals are weak - all game, early, mid, or late. What is your stance on Immortals in late game compositions, just so we have all the bases covered? There may be room for a late game Immortal upgrade.
Problem is in a certain match-up, for example in Late game PvZ, you don't need Immortals because Zerg is going for Infestors and Brood Lords composition, and late game Ultras are never an option just because of those same Immortals, except for certain timings where you use 3-5 Ultras just to crush Forcefields and give the room to Banelings to destroy everything else, but that is just timing for not dying to Protoss timing, after that you start your usual Infestors and Brood Lord army.

On the other hand, they are not used in PvT lategame because Ghosts hard-counter along with whole Bio that upgraded just has DPS over the top and too much for Immortal to be able to deal with them.

In PvP, you again see them middle game, then you see transiotion into mass Colossi, because even if Immortals are specialized against armored targets, Colossi just has 9 range, and you won't be able to target Colossi because of Zealots that are tanking for them. In PvP, late game is always mass Colossi vs. mass Colossi.

In other words, they have their place in middle game, but I don't see that any buff could help them be useful in late game, in any match-up, but in every match-up, certain late game strategies aren't viable at all just because of them(like Ultras/Infestors, Mech in general etc).

Sheliek
08-23-2012, 10:22 AM
immortal warp-in :)

Anyone else remember when this was an actual thing in multiplayer? SC2's alpha would have been interesting to play.

RamiZ
08-23-2012, 11:35 AM
Anyone else remember when this was an actual thing in multiplayer? SC2's alpha would have been interesting to play.
Yeah, back then, when Immortals were on the same tier as Stalkers. :D

TheEconomist
08-23-2012, 01:05 PM
Who cares? All you needed back then to win was proxy a barracks and make a Maurader. Protoss can't do shit against it. GG

Mauraders came with pre-researched slow and Stalkers were hard as hell to get out in time, not that it'd matter since Stalkers are weak sauce against Mauraders.

Noctis
08-23-2012, 02:15 PM
Who cares? All you needed back then to win was proxy a barracks and make a Maurader. Protoss can't do shit against it. GG

Mauraders came with pre-researched slow and Stalkers were hard as hell to get out in time, not that it'd matter since Stalkers are weak sauce against Mauraders.

please...lets all forget about those scary, traumatizing, mind-bending days. *rocks back and forth sucking thumb in corner*

there was also the time when PvZ consisted of Roaches vs getting immortals fast enough to win

DemolitionSquid
08-23-2012, 02:40 PM
Problem is in a certain match-up, for example in Late game PvZ, you don't need Immortals because Zerg is going for Infestors and Brood Lords composition, and late game Ultras are never an option just because of those same Immortals, except for certain timings where you use 3-5 Ultras just to crush Forcefields and give the room to Banelings to destroy everything else, but that is just timing for not dying to Protoss timing, after that you start your usual Infestors and Brood Lord army.

On the other hand, they are not used in PvT lategame because Ghosts hard-counter along with whole Bio that upgraded just has DPS over the top and too much for Immortal to be able to deal with them.

In PvP, you again see them middle game, then you see transiotion into mass Colossi, because even if Immortals are specialized against armored targets, Colossi just has 9 range, and you won't be able to target Colossi because of Zealots that are tanking for them. In PvP, late game is always mass Colossi vs. mass Colossi.

In other words, they have their place in middle game, but I don't see that any buff could help them be useful in late game, in any match-up, but in every match-up, certain late game strategies aren't viable at all just because of them(like Ultras/Infestors, Mech in general etc).

Immortals get +2/+3 vs armored for every Forge upgrade. Could that be lowered to +2/+2 safely to make Ultralisks/Mech a bit more viable late game? This would then leave room for an upgrade to invest in if you choose to build lots of Immortals. Possibly something like removing the need to be outside combat for their shield regeneration so they're slightly more effective in general.

Cotcan
08-23-2012, 03:20 PM
So you are saying we should nerf the immortal, and then buff it? Personally, I think the immortal is fine. The only balancing that is of most worth is with the new units. The Tempest as the new capital ship is sad, as its more of a siege unit rather than a unit like bc.

DemolitionSquid
08-23-2012, 03:35 PM
So you are saying we should nerf the immortal, and then buff it? Personally, I think the immortal is fine. The only balancing that is of most worth is with the new units. The Tempest as the new capital ship is sad, as its more of a siege unit rather than a unit like bc.

I prefer the term "redistribution of power." Say a unit has 100 HP and does 20 damage, and you find its overpowered. My solution would be like reducing its damage to 10 and increasing its health to 200 and it balances. You shift its focus from "high damage/low survivability" to "high survivability/low damage." In the case of the Immortal, my suggestion would be shifting its focus slightly from "anti-mech" to "generalist."

RamiZ
08-23-2012, 04:46 PM
Immortals get +2/+3 vs armored for every Forge upgrade. Could that be lowered to +2/+2 safely to make Ultralisks/Mech a bit more viable late game? This would then leave room for an upgrade to invest in if you choose to build lots of Immortals. Possibly something like removing the need to be outside combat for their shield regeneration so they're slightly more effective in general.

The design of the unit is a lot more problematic than its stats, like many other Starcraft 2 units. At first, the whole concept of the unit was to deal with high-burst units like Siege Tanks, Thors, Ultras etc. It has hardened shield for a reason, but why would enemy attack Immortals at all if they aren't a treat to the enemy? And then, they buffed Immortal damage vs. those same units, but then it didn't matter if the unit concept was to be a meat shield, it deals a lot of damage, so why not using it like that?
And they even buffed the range of the Immortals from 5 to 6, so it isn't in the first lines anymore(meaning it isn't attacked before the Stalkers, they have the same range now).

You can change the damage upgrades, but those aren't drastic changes, in 9/10 cases, you won't see the difference, because what really matters is the Immortal damage vs. armored, and doing 50, or 53, or 52, or 49 damage doesn't really matter when that damage is enough to 3 or 4-shot them. Armor upgrades don't help much in these cases, even if Immortal has 0 upgrades.

What could be done, to nerf their strength vs. armored units is to change their attack, in a sense to have the same dps in the end, but attack faster for lower damage(the same way how Thor was nerfed from 2x45 to 2x30, but has the same dps), so that way, armor make sense, instead of firing one heavy shot that ignores the armor, they fire a lot of smaller shots that each get reduced by the armor.

That is the only way I can see to not completely change the unit, nor the numbers by some huge margin, but armored units that usually have more armor will have higher chances.

At the start of Starcraft 2, I liked the hard-counter concept, but in the end, it turned out to be pretty bad, since if you don't go for standard play, or play that counters your opponent, you usually end up with "wrong" army composition, and no micro can save you from dying to the opponent's "a-click". And the Immortal is perfect example of that. No matter how many Roaches I have, I can be at 200/200 Roaches, if he has 5-6 Immortals with his army that consists of Sentries and Stalkers, I am done...

Caliban113
08-23-2012, 10:50 PM
Anyone else remember when this was an actual thing in multiplayer? SC2's alpha would have been interesting to play.

Yep! - its actually in one of the pre-beta Battle Reports - The one on Scrapyard, I think. (?)

RamiZ
08-24-2012, 05:07 AM
Who cares? All you needed back then to win was proxy a barracks and make a Maurader. Protoss can't do shit against it. GG

Mauraders came with pre-researched slow and Stalkers were hard as hell to get out in time, not that it'd matter since Stalkers are weak sauce against Mauraders.

In Alpha, Marauders also had area of effect on their slow attack, so you could kite 10 Zealots with 1 Marauder. :D

GnaReffotsirk
08-24-2012, 05:54 AM
What about more psionic units for protoss? Or psionic abilities?

RamiZ
08-24-2012, 08:12 AM
Guys, the people organized Russian 100$ HOTS Custom Tournament, with known Russian players and players from Ukraine like Kas, Bly, Frear, BratOK etc. It was pretty small tournament, only 8 players played in it.

The games were pretty entertaining, at least, the semi Finals and Finals were, since Xenox did great job on the HOTS custom map.

http://www.twitch.tv/sc2tv_ru/b/329661716

This is the link of Semi-finals and Finals.

Sheliek
08-24-2012, 02:29 PM
Guys, the people organized Russian 100$ HOTS Custom Tournament, with known Russian players and players from Ukraine like Kas, Bly, Frear, BratOK etc. It was pretty small tournament, only 8 players played in it.

The games were pretty entertaining, at least, the semi Finals and Finals were, since Xenox did great job on the HOTS custom map.

http://www.twitch.tv/sc2tv_ru/b/329661716

This is the link of Semi-finals and Finals.

Shame the sound doesn't work. :/

RamiZ
08-24-2012, 04:45 PM
Shame the sound doesn't work. :/
Yeah, don't know why, it does from the middle of the video though.

Sheliek
08-24-2012, 05:19 PM
Yeah, don't know why, it does from the middle of the video though.

Will check again.

RamiZ
08-25-2012, 02:56 AM
Will check again.

But, it is on Russian! :D
Well, doesn't really matter, that guy was entertaining as a caster, even though I know almost nothing about Russian language except for some words that are the same/similar on my language too.