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View Full Version : David Kim Explains the New Units (Video)



The_Blade
07-14-2012, 02:03 PM
Continue discussion here. Original thread suffered collateral damage during the latest bot raid.

VIDEO (http://www.g4tv.com/videos/59213/starcraft-2-heart-of-the-swarm-new-units-explained-by-david-kim/)

Main Argument:

"The Upgrade game", proposed by DS, which goal is to teorycraft on how upgrades should work for the new units in HotS. Please repost your previous ideas.

For me, the widow mine should have its anti-air attack for an upgrade. This will increase the risk of making an investment on the upgrade. Upgrades like Stim and Siege mode are essential for most Terran games and have a small risk when researched. Adding a wider splash damage radius, damage, or faster detonation to the widow mine would reduce to thought behind researching said upgrades.

The War Hound should be able to buy a HP shield after researching an upgrade. This shield is destroyed in battle and must be bought again.

RamiZ
07-14-2012, 04:22 PM
The War Hound should be able to buy a HP shield after researching an upgrade. This shield is destroyed in battle and must be bought again.
That doesn't sound like Starcraft at all... Starcraft isn't about microing the units out of the battle with low health, I mean, we are talking about Warhounds here, big and slow Mech Warriors, I can't possibly think that it will survive some attack, and that I will have to upgrade the shield for him again(if I have to upgrade it at all).

For me, some sort of Haywire Missile upgrade will do the job. Faster cooldown, or being able to target massive units.

DemolitionSquid
07-14-2012, 04:31 PM
Yeah I'm not feeling the shield idea either. Part of why I hate the carrier so much is its variable power based on how any Interceptors are alive, and this is basically the same thing. Also, Marines already get the combat shield upgrade so its not as original as I think you were hoping for, Blade.

For the Warhound I'm pretty much set on an increased Haywire attack speed or straight damage upgrade being a better solution.

RamiZ
07-15-2012, 03:20 AM
So I already told you my idea about the Warhound, what would you do to make it viable against Zerg? Or to make it at least good against something.

DemolitionSquid
07-15-2012, 12:27 PM
The problem is, as long as Widow Mines are effective against Mutalisks, there really isn't any hole left in Terran play for the Warhound to fill, especially in TvZ. I think that possibly changing Haywire missile to attack Armored instead of Mechanical would significantly increase the role of the Warhound without making it too powerful. It would have literally no change in TvT and TvP but gain utility in TvZ by hitting Roaches, Swarm Hosts, and Ultralisks.

Twilice
07-15-2012, 02:18 PM
Apart that you might start massing Warhounds since they would counter every unit in the terran army apart from marines.

Hellion/Warhound meta?

Kimera757
07-15-2012, 02:52 PM
If warhounds could produce widow mines, you might literally need nothing beyond them. (Do widow mines really belong in the game if the thor is there, at least versus air?)

RamiZ
07-15-2012, 03:39 PM
If warhounds could produce widow mines, you might literally need nothing beyond them. (Do widow mines really belong in the game if the thor is there, at least versus air?)
Thor does like no damage to the armored air units, where Widow Mine does 200. But still, I am a little bit confused about Blizzard's decision to make Widow Mines being able to target air. People talk about Thors being big, and not being able to deal with Mutalisks. To be honest, I don't see any Terran having problems with Mutalisks, even if you are completely unprepared for them, they kill like ~10 SCVs, maybe destroy some reactor/tech lab, and then Marines arrive and repel them.

If you are prepared, adding like 2-3 Turrets before first wave of ~10 Mutas arrives, they will barely do any damage, and it won't be cost-effective for sure, if you want to trade Mutas for Turrets.

But I guess they want to continue the game of hard hard counters, because of Magic Box, Thors don't counter Mutas hard enough. -.-'

dar474greg
07-15-2012, 08:10 PM
Well.. I like it that widow mines can target those in the air.. It adds spice to the game.. Enemies are always cautious during attack.

Alar
07-15-2012, 11:00 PM
I'm behind the idea of the AA being an upgrade. Then again, I'm also behind the idea of some of the current Zerg upgrades being more expensive... they probably just seem overpowered from the changes they've shown so far, but I want to keep a close eye on it.

Cotcan
07-18-2012, 11:41 AM
I personally think that the upgrade will force any player going against tons of widow mines to go air. But if widow mines can attack ether, it makes harassing or attacking a bit more unsure. You don't know if you should send in your 10 mutas to attack their mineral line if a widow mine is hidden there. Although the widow mine being able to attack air shuts down harassment, unless you are pretty far away, or are not seen.

The_Blade
07-18-2012, 12:39 PM
That's the main problem. Terrans have really safe openings and with widow mines they could transition into mech quite easily. This would shut down Protoss Oracles, Terran drops and would be devastating for Zerg. The War Hound might not work that well vs Zerg, but the rest of the mech tech, specially with their current upgrades, will devastate Hatch and Lair tech Zerg.

MulletBen
07-19-2012, 01:38 AM
The problem is, as long as Widow Mines are effective against Mutalisks, there really isn't any hole left in Terran play for the Warhound to fill, especially in TvZ. I think that possibly changing Haywire missile to attack Armored instead of Mechanical would significantly increase the role of the Warhound without making it too powerful. It would have literally no change in TvT and TvP but gain utility in TvZ by hitting Roaches, Swarm Hosts, and Ultralisks.

It would have literally no change in TvT

literally

Has someone forgotten marauders already?

Pr0nogo
07-19-2012, 08:58 AM
boringest unit

DemolitionSquid
07-19-2012, 02:23 PM
Has someone forgotten marauders already?

I see your point and will try to elaborate.

My statement was saying that Haywire Missiles hitting Armored instead of Mechanical would not change the TvT or TvP matchup in any clearly adverse way. Hitting Mechanical in TvT, Haywire current targets:
- SCV's
- Battle Hellions
- Siege Tanks
- Ground Mode Vikings
- Thors
- other Warhounds(assumed)
- Widow Mines (assumed)

I believe your point is that by changing the attack to target Armored instead of Mechanical, it would also hit Marauders, which would adversely affect the matchup since Marauders also have an anti-armored attack bonus clearly meant to help Barracks focused armies more effective against Factory focused armies.

Your proposition is that the Warhound would be too powerful against Marauders with an anti-armored attack and would make Barracks a less viable counter to Factory play. My counter argument is that Siege Tanks already have anti-armored attacks and the game is still balanced. As long as producing a Warhound is as much as or near to the same investment as producing a Siege Tank, effectively making the player's choice one or the other, I see no reason the change cannot be a viable option.

dar474greg
07-19-2012, 10:25 PM
Rushing your opponent is a common strategy in StarCraft 2 and each race has a different way of doing it. This article is going to look at the most effective StarCraft 2 rush strategy for each race.

Terran

The Ghost Nuke rush is a great way to take out your opponent's economy in one move but unlike in the first StarCraft you can't use nukes to decimate their entire base, they're not as powerful as before. This is why the best StarCraft 2 rush strategy with nukes involves taking out your enemy's work force then sending in the army which you'll simultaneously be preparing to take out their army while they're scrambling to replenish their probes, workers, etc.


Protoss

A major Protoss StarCraft 2 rush strategy involves the Void Ray which is a unit which you can easily get quickly in the game and is effective because in most games if you can build quickly enough to tech to void rays it's likely your opponent won't have the anti-air capabilities to defend against you. It's important to macro and continue to send additional Void Rays to reinforce and win the battle.


Zerg

The StarCraft 2 Zerg rush strategy involves Speedlings/Zerglings (Zerglings require a Metabolic Boost). Speedlings should be a part of your game every time you play as Zerg because they inflict serious economic damage, defend your base well, and are the fastest moving units so they're great for any use you can think of.

Cotcan
07-21-2012, 01:05 PM
I'm going off topic a little bit, I just have a question. Would it be possible to use a widow mine on a widow mine? Like have a burrowed one attack another burrowed one. If so, what would it look like. I wonder if this could cause just armies of widow mines attacking each other.

DemolitionSquid
07-21-2012, 01:43 PM
I'm going off topic a little bit, I just have a question. Would it be possible to use a widow mine on a widow mine? Like have a burrowed one attack another burrowed one. If so, what would it look like. I wonder if this could cause just armies of widow mines attacking each other.

Of course a WM can attack another WM. They are both full units. If two WM's walk up to each other and burrow, the one that burrows first will attach to the one that burrows last. If by some unlikely chance both WM's burrow at exactly the same time and cloak, both will do exactly nothing. The one that gains detection first will then attach to the one still burrowed which cannot detect. The only scenario where it is not clear what would occur is if two burrowed WM's got detection of each other at exactly the same time, but the chances of that occurring in a competitive match are infinitesimally miniscule. Such a thing would only be possible through a custom map situation.

TheProgramer
07-22-2012, 06:08 PM
Continue discussion here. Original thread suffered collateral damage during the latest bot raid.


Yeah thats how it got deleted . . . suuuurre.

Sheliek
07-23-2012, 01:23 PM
Yeah thats how it got deleted . . . suuuurre.

Hey, I'm just saying. I made an awesome post, then it got deleted. It's a conspiracy man.

RamiZ
07-24-2012, 06:59 AM
Guys, did you try HOTS Custom 2 from Xenox? He did great job on it, almost everything is identical from MLG build, and it is on the new map that we saw two battle reports being played at MLG(and the map is almost the same, he even did collapsible rocks).

I played only Zerg a bit, but players that tried it out against other players said that Warhounds are one of the strongest units for their cost.

Edit: Just tried Terran Mech vs. AI to see how strong it is, and I must say that I am extremely pleased. Yes, I know it was AI, but Protoss was making mass Zealots with few Stalkers and tons of Immortals(like 8 or something), and Warhounds ate those Immortals for breakfast. They are so strong, have great dps and those missiles really helps. I am looking forward to Terran mech being playable again.

I am so excited! ^^

TheProgramer
07-24-2012, 03:11 PM
Hey, I'm just saying. I made an awesome post, then it got deleted. It's a conspiracy man.

Hey as long as there is less pony posts in this forum i'm happy. Good ridence. Wish all posts with ponys would "suffer collateral damage during the latest bot raid."

Twilice
07-24-2012, 04:03 PM
^ Hey I saved the thread and turned it on topic. I just don't understand why the topic wasn't closed during the "raid" or whatever to call it instead of after.

Pr0nogo
07-24-2012, 10:20 PM
yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

Cotcan
07-25-2012, 02:18 PM
Guys, did you try HOTS Custom 2 from Xenox? He did great job on it, almost everything is identical from MLG build, and it is on the new map that we saw two battle reports being played at MLG(and the map is almost the same, he even did collapsible rocks).

I played only Zerg a bit, but players that tried it out against other players said that Warhounds are one of the strongest units for their cost.

Edit: Just tried Terran Mech vs. AI to see how strong it is, and I must say that I am extremely pleased. Yes, I know it was AI, but Protoss was making mass Zealots with few Stalkers and tons of Immortals(like 8 or something), and Warhounds ate those Immortals for breakfast. They are so strong, have great dps and those missiles really helps. I am looking forward to Terran mech being playable again.

I am so excited! ^^

Yay, Immortals will be useless. Now toss has nothing to stop the future tank, thor/marine, and warhound pushes. Awesome, toss gets hit the stomach again. First no harass unit other than dt, and now all the new units are air. I may end up leaving toss for terran.

RamiZ
07-25-2012, 05:45 PM
Yay, Immortals will be useless. Now toss has nothing to stop the future tank, thor/marine, and warhound pushes. Awesome, toss gets hit the stomach again. First no harass unit other than dt, and now all the new units are air. I may end up leaving toss for terran.

Like a true gold league player! No, but seriously? You don't know anything about the HOTS. It is not even in Beta stage yet, and Beta will balance the things out a lot if there will be any major imbalance. Also, cost per cost, Immortals still eat everything that is armored, including Warhounds, even so, 12 Immortals wins vs. 16 Warhounds(tried it in unit tester), so it is not like that they are that strong on their own, but with proper support, they really do great damage.

And I don't think that Protoss got hit "again", I don't even know what that again means, because Protoss seems really really strong lately. Also, Protoss got a lot of tricks as well, Oracle is great, HTs can now start with full energy thanks to Mothership core. You will see a ton of new cloak timing attacks with Oracle. As far as I heard, energize can also be used on Nexus, so you basically have infinite Chronoboost etc.

And yes, if by no harass units you mean that Void Rays, Phoenixes and Warp Prism can't be used for harassment, then yes, Protoss really suck at harassing.

Zerg also suck at harassing, it only has Mutas. I will exclude everything that can be used for harassing in the Zerg arsenal as well, because why the hell would we consider Nydus, Drops, Baneling Drops, Infestors with ITs and Ling run-by's as harassment?