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Caliban113
06-08-2012, 04:27 PM
Well, thankfully each race now has a scary unit, but which will be the scariest....?

Hmm - cheap and early cloaking for units and buildings, Super fast easy econ raid with no alert....top it off with a massive unit that has 1-hit power, and what looks like, 30 range (hmmm - gonna need a bigger monitor...)

Think we found the scariest....

Let the cries of........."Protoss IMBA!!" - Begin!!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4nNfZwwhYg&feature=player_embedded

Visions of Khas
06-08-2012, 04:55 PM
So basically... the Protoss get a faster, shielded Guardian; and Zerg get the most annoying ability ever, Abduction. Well, at least Dark Swarm makes a comeback.

I just don't get the Mothership core... thing. Just give those abilities to the Nexus.




Hm, interesting thought. So, if I were terran, would it be a good idea to Widow Mine my tanks if I notice my Zerg opponent cranking out Vipers? He's essentially swallow down my... explosiveness. Yes, we'll go with that...

Caliban113
06-08-2012, 04:57 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot - the "Planetary Nexus" :)


Ah yes, and the new 'Dark Swarm' - Ling/Bane/Ultra definitely just got cheaper....

Carsickness
06-08-2012, 04:59 PM
Sweet! So it looks like the mother ship core only spawns on a Nexus (probably uses energy) I wonder if it does Aoe for Mutalisks?

That new spider mine looks a little weak due to the massive timer. I guess it is a garunteed hit though...

Zerg looks even more micro intensive! Will be nice to see them in the hands of a pro.

Visions of Khas
06-08-2012, 05:01 PM
That new spider mine looks a little weak due to the massive timer. I guess it is a garunteed hit though...

I get the feeling they want more units that are prone to hurting the player themselves. That's essentially what one of the older HotS terran units did, the Spinning Razor or whatever. These mines seem like they can be more a liability than anything. What advantage would they have over Spider Mines?

RamiZ
06-08-2012, 05:45 PM
Well, thankfully each race now has a scary unit, but which will be the scariest....?

Hmm - cheap and early cloaking for units and buildings with fast easy econ raid....top it off with a massive unit with 1-hit power, and what looks like, 30 range (hmmm - gonna need a bigger monitor...)

Think we found the scariest....

Let the cries of........."Protoss IMBA!!" - Begin!!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4nNfZwwhYg&feature=player_embedded
Even though it is beta, and it should be imbalanced, I don't feel like it was. It was a lot closer than we thought, and the Zerg just fucked up, he was making just Hydras(not just them, but they were the core units in his army), and Hydras even with Speed, aren't Hydras from SC1, they are glass cannons and cost way too much... if he made the combination of Roaches and Hydras, it would be a different story, I think.

And he didn't do anything about that Entomb, which won the game for Protoss. In the end, Zerg, the race that needs gas the most, has 0 Minerals and 3000 gas. And it was definitely cause of Entomb.

I like almost all of the new things, and also think that Tempest range might be too much, because it is mobile unit unlike Siege Tanks, but we will see.


So basically... the Protoss get a faster, shielded Guardian; and Zerg get the most annoying ability ever, Abduction. Well, at least Dark Swarm makes a comeback.

I just don't get the Mothership core... thing. Just give those abilities to the Nexus.
The most annoying ability ever? I think you meant Entomb. :p

And Mothership core is cool mechanic, it isn't just Nexus, because Mothership core can turn into Mothership later on, and gain completely new abilities.

Caliban113
06-08-2012, 06:17 PM
Yeah, hadn't seen the battle report yet - Zerg was strong early mid game, but those entombs just took their toll...since there is no attack warning, people who dont pay close attn to the minimap or keep close eyes on their bases are definitely gonna pay.

Those Locusts are way stronger than I thought - will be tough to deal with in masses


Oh and 22 range? Good night!! - wonder how many it takes to 1-hit a CC?

RamiZ
06-08-2012, 06:27 PM
Yeah, hadn't seen the battle report yet - Zerg was strong early mid game, but those entombs just took their toll...since there is no attack warning, people who dont pay close attn to the minimap or keep close eyes on their bases are definitely gonna pay.

Those Locusts are way stronger than I thought - will be tough to deal with in masses


Oh and 22 range? Good night!! - wonder how many it takes to 1-hit a CC?
Well for Entomb, it isn't that hard to spot, since you need to look at your base if you are playing Terran or Zerg, because of Mules and Larvae.
And Entomb can be countered by leaving few units in the mineral line anyway.

In HOTS Custom map, Swarm Hosts were the problem, you could make like 15+ of them, and they would make your life miserable. And what Blizzard did after that... they gave Locust ranged attack, so they can attack air. I can see that strategies that revolves only around Zerglings and Swarm Hosts can be deadly. Not that I complain though, I am a Zerg player, lol. ^^

They could change the look of Locusts a bit, I think that old ones were a lot better. :p

EDIT: HOLY SHIT! I just watched the Unit Video again. Look at the end of the Video, the final Zerg vs. Terran battle. Seems like Swarm Hosts have the upgrade to produce 4 Locusts instead of 2 at the time. That is actually brutal upgrade, and you need just few of them(3-4), to have a lot of small units in the late game. And now that Locusts are ranged, seems like that Swarm Host with Brood Lords, Infestors and Vipers will be sick as fuck!

Can't wait to see the pro matches with these.

Sheliek
06-08-2012, 06:43 PM
Well for Entomb, it isn't that hard to spot, since you need to look at your base if you are playing Terran or Zerg, because of Mules and Larvae.
And Entomb can be countered by leaving few units in the mineral line anyway.

In HOTS Custom map, Swarm Hosts were the problem, you could make like 15+ of them, and they would make your life miserable. And what Blizzard did after that... they gave Locust ranged attack, so they can attack air. I can see that strategies that revolves only around Zerglings and Swarm Hosts can be deadly. Not that I complain though, I am a Zerg player, lol. ^^

They could change the look of Locusts a bit, I think that old ones were a lot better. :p

EDIT: HOLY SHIT! I just watched the Unit Video again. Look at the end of the Video, the final Zerg vs. Terran battle. Seems like Swarm Hosts have the upgrade to produce 4 Locusts instead of 2 at the time. That is actually brutal upgrade, and you need just few of them(3-4), to have a lot of small units in the late game. And now that Locusts are ranged, seems like that Swarm Host with Brood Lords, Infestors and Vipers will be sick as fuck!

Can't wait to see the pro matches with these.
I never saw locusts hitting air. You sure on that?

RamiZ
06-08-2012, 06:46 PM
I never saw locusts hitting air. You sure on that?

It says on Unit video. And watch this video from 17:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gcs52bErU4&feature=player_embedded#!

Sheliek
06-08-2012, 06:51 PM
It says on Unit video. And watch this video from 17:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gcs52bErU4&feature=player_embedded#!

Fail on my part if it's in the unit video.

DemolitionSquid
06-08-2012, 07:40 PM
I'm just gonna go through these things one by one, as always.

Zerg - 3/3
Overview: Best racial improvements by far. There's not much else to say because these superb changes speak for themselves.

Swarm Host: Fantastic. Love it. It's as "Zergy" as you can get and gives Zerg real staying power.

Viper: Its a flying Defiler, and I'm OK with that. Zerg just wasn't cutting it with only Fungal Growth for crowd control.

Ultralisk Charge: Kind of a cop out, becoming Zealots, but its simple and functional. Ultralisks needed a buff badly.


Protoss - 2/3
Overview: Clearly improved in significant ways but too early to call on some aspects. Frankly, the Tempest is the sole reason Protoss don't score higher.

Mothership Core: I think this is an acceptable direction to take, especially if it makes expanding in PvP viable. All its current abilities appear useful, and Recall on the Nexus is an idea I've pushed for a long time. Retaining the option to become a full Mothership is an interesting twist, and overall I see a lot of possibility in this unit right now.

Oracle: While originally I was angry they put this on the Starport instead of the Robotics Facility (because the Starport already had a harassing unit in the Phoenix), I can accept its tech placement because it will help make Stargate play more viable as a whole. This is because the Oracle appears to be very effective with its abilities, all of which (except the redundant Preordain) are clearly useful.

Tempest: This is the black sheep of the new Protoss lineup. It's a 22 range Brood Lord. Chew on that without gagging, I dare you. I cannot believe anyone acctually thinks this unit is a good idea. There has to be a better solution.

Terran - 1/3
Overview: Terrible. Uncreative and minimally effective changes.

Battle Hellion: Seriously? Its a fucking Firebat, and ultimately a cheap shoehorn of a unit thats been a joke for a decade. I feel like Blizzard is trolling me. Its bullshit like this that is the reason I don't play Terran.

Warhound: I'm failing this unit right now simply because I don't know enough about it. Does it replace the Thor completely, or is the Thor still in the Factory too? Is its "missile" attack an extra attack it uses only against Mech units in intervals, is it part of its standard attack, or is it an ability? Does it shoot flying units and solve the "Mutaball" problem, or s that still relegated to the Thor? These are important questions I need answers to before I can say this unit is a good addition to the Terran arsenal.

Widow Mine: The only good change, and arguably the most important. Their ability to protect against Mutalisk harassment is what will make or break these, which will certainly require a shorter timer.

Sheliek
06-08-2012, 07:46 PM
I'm just gonna go through these things one by one, as always.

Zerg - 3/3
Overview: Best racial improvements by far. There's not much else to say because these superb changes speak for themselves.

Swarm Host: Fantastic. Love it. It's as "Zergy" as you can get and gives Zerg real staying power.

Viper: Its a flying Defiler, and I'm OK with that. Zerg just wasn't cutting it with only Fungal Growth for crowd control.

Ultralisk Charge: Kind of a cop out, becoming Zealots, but its simple and functional. Ultralisks needed a buff badly.


Protoss - 2/3
Overview: Clearly improved in significant ways but too early to call on some aspects. Frankly, the Tempest is the sole reason Protoss don't score higher.

Mothership Core: I think this is an acceptable direction to take, especially if it makes expanding in PvP viable. All its current abilities appear useful, and Recall on the Nexus is an idea I've pushed for a long time. Retaining the option to become a full Mothership is an interesting twist, and overall I see a lot of possibility in this unit right now.

Oracle: While originally I was angry they put this on the Starport instead of the Robotics Facility (because the Starport already had a harassing unit in the Phoenix), I can accept its tech placement because it will help make Stargate play more viable as a whole. This is because the Oracle appears to be very effective with its abilities, all of which (except the redundant Preordain) are clearly useful.

Tempest: This is the black sheep of the new Protoss lineup. It's a 22 range Brood Lord. Chew on that without gagging, I dare you. I cannot believe anyone acctually thinks this unit is a good idea. There has to be a better solution.

Terran - 1/3
Overview: Terrible. Uncreative and minimally effective changes.

Battle Hellion: Seriously? Its a fucking Firebat, and ultimately a cheap shoehorn of a unit thats been a joke for a decade. I feel like Blizzard is trolling me. Its bullshit like this that is the reason I don't play Terran.

Warhound: I'm failing this unit right now simply because I don't know enough about it. Does it replace the Thor completely, or is the Thor still in the Factory too? Is its "missile" attack an extra attack it uses only against Mech units in intervals, is it part of its standard attack, or is it an ability? Does it shoot flying units and solve the "Mutaball" problem, or s that still relegated to the Thor? These are important questions I need answers to before I can say this unit is a good addition to the Terran arsenal.

Widow Mine: The only good change, and arguably the most important. Their ability to protect against Mutalisk harassment is what will make or break these, which will certainly require a shorter timer.

The Warhound uses the missile attack independently of its regular attack, according to a TeamLiquid Q&A. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343491)

The_Blade
06-08-2012, 07:51 PM
I can just see Terrans dropping the mines on the mineral lines and laughing their asses off. Then Protoss cloaks in and rapes everything.

TheEconomist
06-08-2012, 08:14 PM
Terran Overview: Terrible. Uncreative and minimally effective changes.

Ahhhhhh, so they're starting to balance, eh? Good news.

Hawki
06-08-2012, 08:23 PM
Giving my opinion for what it's worth, as per the new trailer:

-Mothership Core: Um...what? What genius protoss scientist decided that it would be a good idea to take out a mothership core and put it on a nexus? From a gameplay standard it works fine, but just give the nexus the same abilities. But from a lore one, it seems like an absurd decision.

-Oracle: The cloaking field seems a bit IMBA IMO, but I like the unit as a whole.

-Tempest: Bit similar to the brood lord, but I can appreciate that the difference between attacks and spawned broodlings is indeed different. Like the unit overall.

-Battle Hellion: Personally, I'd rather have a firebat. Yes, that would probably be unit overlap, but it's still preferable to having a transforming buggy. And Hellions have a distinct place in multiplayer matches as hit and run units, even if I found them rather useless. Again, I'd prefer a firebat.

-Warhound: Don't like the new animation, but I like the unit itself.

-Widow mine: Mixed. On one hand, I like that spider mines are back in some form. On the other, why are the mines attatching themselves to ground units instead of just detonating? Balance reasons I guess, but again, I can't think of an in-universe explanation.

-Missile launcher: Guess it's been canceled due to its absence. Meh. Kind of a redundant unit IMO.

-Locust: I'd prefer a visual redesign.

-Swarm host: No complaints.

-Viper: Aerial defiler FTW.

-Ultralisk charge: Like the idea, but why underground? It seems a bit strange in-universe as to how moving underground is faster than travelling above it. On the other hand, love the animation behind the technique.

DemolitionSquid
06-08-2012, 08:33 PM
-Oracle: The cloaking field seems a bit IMBA IMO, but I like the unit as a whole.

The Oracle's cloak requires energy and only lasts a few seconds. If the Arbiter wasn't imba, neither is this.

RamiZ
06-08-2012, 08:39 PM
Overview: Terrible. Uncreative and minimally effective changes.

Battle Hellion: Seriously? Its a fucking Firebat, and ultimately a cheap shoehorn of a unit thats been a joke for a decade. I feel like Blizzard is trolling me. Its bullshit like this that is the reason I don't play Terran.

Warhound: I'm failing this unit right now simply because I don't know enough about it. Does it replace the Thor completely, or is the Thor still in the Factory too? Is its "missile" attack an extra attack it uses only against Mech units in intervals, is it part of its standard attack, or is it an ability? Does it shoot flying units and solve the "Mutaball" problem, or s that still relegated to the Thor? These are important questions I need answers to before I can say this unit is a good addition to the Terran arsenal.

Widow Mine: The only good change, and arguably the most important. Their ability to protect against Mutalisk harassment is what will make or break these, which will certainly require a shorter timer.
As far as I know, Thor is still in the game, and Warhound have normal attack, and missile attack, that works only against mechanical units, and it seems that it shoots them randomly.

And I think it is pretty logical to make an upgrade for shorter timer on Widow Mines.
Even though Terran has arguably "the worst" changes, I like them a lot, because it will be possible for Terran to play something else except bio.

Caliban113
06-08-2012, 08:45 PM
Widow mine: Mixed. On one hand, I like that spider mines are back in some form. On the other, why are the mines attatching themselves to ground units instead of just detonating? Balance reasons I guess, but again, I can't think of an in-universe explanation.



Dont forget mines hit air - cant wait fer them smartass zerg to fly into my base with a couple of mines near the cc - then take the mines with them. - HA!

topsecret221
06-08-2012, 11:31 PM
I am incredibly sad at the decision to remove the Carrier from multiplayer.
Beyond the fact that it's simply an iconic unit, I've been seeing more and more of its use in multiplayer and several pro matches.

The new units and mechanics, however, are wonderful. The only thing I am sure can be questioned is entomb: I feel like the expense of one Oracle to keep an entire mineral line from operating for those few seconds is a little too cost effective. Maybe implement a cooldown and smaller radius?

Rake
06-09-2012, 01:11 AM
Dont forget mines hit air - cant wait fer them smartass zerg to fly into my base with a couple of mines near the cc - then take the mines with them. - HA!

Does mine damage hit all units or just enemy units? Because if it is all units you can send in one sacraficial muta to pick up the mines and explode them on the SCVs.

Also, tempests can hit air. I'm not convinced about the unit but the animation looks cool.

Alar
06-09-2012, 01:48 AM
I feel mixed about the changes.

I feel they really need to make Abduct more punishing for the user, because in the video he was throwing Abducts out like crazy. I understand making the unit useful, but why not give people more reason to use the new Dark Swarm instead? Increase cast range, or duration, or something else. Constantly grabbing the most useful units with barely any cost to change the entire way a battle turns out seems a bit imbalanced.

I'm a bit iffy about the Swarm Host. While I like the interval on how long it takes to get them, I would think they should be a -little- bit squishier, closer to Broodlings so they don't last several volleys of fire. I can see them soaking up one or two waves of attack, but any more than that and it seems like the Zerg have a constant shield of flesh protecting their units (unless you micro fire).

The Hydralisk changes seem to make them... a bit too strong. You could essentially chase down ANY force as far as I can tell, and needle at them while they run away. This makes them pretty much unstoppable in chasing down understrength groups of enemies.

Ultralisk charge looks cool, but... as others have said, seems like a bit of a cop-out.

The Spider Mines 2.0 are cool, but a shorter timer would be best if they're not going to be instantaneous. Some might complain that they're just Terran Banelings, but I don't quite see them like that.

Warhound still seems like a waste.

New Hellions... ehh, I don't know. It looks to strong-arm Terrans into going mostly Factory if they want to have a beefy, tough army. I'll wait to see how they compare to Marauders before making my final say on them.

I miss the Ripper.

As to the Protoss changes, the Tempest seems both OP and underpowered at the same time. Massed, I could see them easily wreaking havoc on someone without mobile AA, but they also seem very easy to kill when cornered. Grouping them with Void Rays seems like it would be a perfect way to decimate enemy bases.

I like the Mothership Core, especially how early it can be obtained. All the abilities seem solid, and giving it the chance to upgrade into a Mothership is good. Hopefully you can have one Core and one Mothership at the same time.

The Oracle looks super strong at shutting down enemy economy, and I like the new Cloaking Field mechanic.

I was hoping they would give us some interesting new mechanic for Archons, but alas...

Overall I like the direction of the changes, but the Zerg seem a bit strong and the Terran too weak. Hopefully we'll get another Battle Report with Terran in it to showcase their changes.

KDraconis
06-09-2012, 02:53 AM
Since I got to play the MLG build, I'll post some answers/clarifications here.


I just don't get the Mothership core... thing. Just give those abilities to the Nexus.
It's a good way to limit the number of Mass Recalls to 1, give the Protoss a great early-game defensive option, and up the cost of the Mothership effectively allowing the developers to shape the Mothership more into the "hero" unit it was meant to be.

What I mean by upping the cost is, first, you cannot have multiple Mothership Cores at the same time, and you cannot have a Mothership Core at the same time as a Mothership. Obviously this means that you have to give up the defensive benefits of the Core for the offensive benefits of the Mothership, which is a pretty big decision. Second, besides the obvious fact that you need to build a Core before you can upgrade it to a Mothership, thus costing more minerals and gas, it also costs more time in more ways than one. Since the "Upgrade to Mothership" ability is on the Core, and the Core is not a structure, you can't Chronoshift your Mothership to get it out faster. Third, your Core can die, either by being targeted directly or the Nexus it's sitting on being razed. All of this makes Protoss more interesting.


These mines seem like they can be more a liability than anything. What advantage would they have over Spider Mines?
Widows can hit both ground and air, and currently they don't deal splash damage to allied units. They also don't detonate if the latched-onto unit dies before the timer is up. Also, they're directly made from the Factory with no need of any other tech, which means they get out much faster and much more readily than Spider Mines, which have to be researched, then placed by Vultures, with one Vulture only being able to produce a maximum of three.


Seems like Swarm Hosts have the upgrade to produce 4 Locusts instead of 2 at the time.
In the build available at MLG, there is no upgrade to produce 4 Locusts instead of 2, they just produce 4 by default (iirc). There is, however, an upgrade to increase the timed life of Locusts from 15 to 25 (25 being the cooldown for spawning Locusts).


I never saw locusts hitting air. You sure on that?
They definitely do hit air. They have a range of 2, I think.


Warhound: I'm failing this unit right now simply because I don't know enough about it. Does it replace the Thor completely, or is the Thor still in the Factory too? Is its "missile" attack an extra attack it uses only against Mech units in intervals, is it part of its standard attack, or is it an ability? Does it shoot flying units and solve the "Mutaball" problem, or s that still relegated to the Thor? These are important questions I need answers to before I can say this unit is a good addition to the Terran arsenal.
The missiles are an ability that's set to autocast by default, and has a 6-second cooldown timer. Separate from its normal attack, of course. On autocast, it just hits the nearest mechanical unit for 30 damage (it is still a targetable ability though). And no, it does not hit air nor deal splash, so the Thor is still the anti-air anti-mass unit. Thor is still in the Factory.


The Oracle's cloak requires energy and only lasts a few seconds.
Lasts a full minute. But it does take 100 energy to cast, is easily countered, and has a pretty small radius.


I feel they really need to make Abduct more punishing for the user, because in the video he was throwing Abducts out like crazy. I understand making the unit useful, but why not give people more reason to use the new Dark Swarm instead? Increase cast range, or duration, or something else. Constantly grabbing the most useful units with barely any cost to change the entire way a battle turns out seems a bit imbalanced.
To be honest, Abduct only efficiently counters Colossi, Oracles, Thors, and Battlecruisers. For anything else, it doesn't feel worth it to spawn Vipers and then waste energy on abducting when you could be blinding all bio units. Even against Siege Tanks, the range on Abduct is enough that if Marines are standing anywhere near the Siege Tank, they'll be able to shoot the Viper. In the end, Abduct will be used more against Protoss, and Blinding Cloud will be used more against Terran, and a lot lot more against Zerg.

Aldrius
06-09-2012, 03:14 AM
Blinding Cloud is actually 100% useless against Protoss. They have no ranged biological units as far as I know.

Rake
06-09-2012, 03:18 AM
For those who are unaware there is a TvZ HotS video on the MLG restream:

http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/live#sc2

Around 2:09

RamiZ
06-09-2012, 04:05 AM
Blinding Cloud is actually 100% useless against Protoss. They have no ranged biological units as far as I know.

Yeah sad that it ended up like that, but hey, Abduct is a lot more useful against Protoss, since they have really costly units that can be targeted. And don't forget pulling Colossi or Archons over forcefields. :p

And damn, those Widow mines look really good. I mean, they are cheap, small, and with good support, they can go straight in battle. I like it.

Carsickness
06-09-2012, 09:50 AM
Lasts a full minute. But it does take 100 energy to cast, is easily countered, and has a pretty small radius.


I dunno... 3 gate, Stargate with an oracle seems pretty awesome to me.

Also, it doesn't really seem like Zerg has a strong counter to them early/game. It really would force the Zerg player to get some air to deflect constant entombs.

But I play toss, so what do I care :P

Aldrius
06-09-2012, 10:32 AM
Eh, I think extra queens would work. Both for breaking the entombs and warding off the oracles.

DemolitionSquid
06-09-2012, 10:55 AM
I dunno... 3 gate, Stargate with an oracle seems pretty awesome to me.

Also, it doesn't really seem like Zerg has a strong counter to them early/game. It really would force the Zerg player to get some air to deflect constant entombs.

But I play toss, so what do I care :P

3 Gate/Stargate push with Cloaking Field, if CF is inherent on Oracle and not an upgrade, could be crazy OP.

RamiZ
06-09-2012, 11:30 AM
KDraconis, did you maybe take a look at Locusts stats? Hp, armor, damage? I am interested in how much did they change them from last build, stat wise of course.

And btw, no, they produce only 2 Locusts at time, seems like those Swarm Hosts that were spawning 4 Locusts were just for presentation. But hey, if you are going to mass them, that upgrade that make Locusts last 10 seconds longer is awesome as well.

sandwich_bird
06-09-2012, 11:55 AM
I can already see myself raging against protoss. Probably will stop playing random too for fear of being Terran...

KDraconis
06-09-2012, 12:28 PM
KDraconis, did you maybe take a look at Locusts stats? Hp, armor, damage? I am interested in how much did they change them from last build, stat wise of course.

And btw, no, they produce only 2 Locusts at time, seems like those Swarm Hosts that were spawning 4 Locusts were just for presentation. But hey, if you are going to mass them, that upgrade that make Locusts last 10 seconds longer is awesome as well.
I'll check out the Locust stats and how many of them spawn today.

Sheliek
06-09-2012, 02:19 PM
For those who are unaware there is a TvZ HotS video on the MLG restream:

http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/live#sc2

Around 2:09

Any more battle reports in there?

Rake
06-09-2012, 05:10 PM
Any more battle reports in there?

No, just that one.

DemolitionSquid
06-09-2012, 05:35 PM
I posted a new thread about the Warhound I'd really like opinions on.
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14449

Caliban113
06-09-2012, 05:39 PM
Does mine damage hit all units or just enemy units? Because if it is all units you can send in one sacraficial muta to pick up the mines and explode them on the SCVs.

Also, tempests can hit air. I'm not convinced about the unit but the animation looks cool.

Hits everything thats near it as far as I can see, (including your stuff, so definitely a potential for backlash if you use them near your army) but like the old 'irradiate' spell, the zerg player will have to stop to micro apart his mutas to avoid big damage - (and potentially allowing you time counter them with other units while the player is occupied) I suppose use in you own base could be risky. I can see Zerg players purposely allowing lings to get caught with a nearby mine and then run headlong into your mineral line with a hyper-fast, free, "super" baneling. Prolly safest to use away from your army at chokes and such.

Although......wondering if you can target on your own army to use as suicide units?

Cant wait to use them in any case. :) I predict they will kill big time (in the beginning) until everyone starts blind-building detectors to keep with their army



Widows can hit both ground and air, and currently they don't deal splash damage to allied units. They also don't detonate if the latched-onto unit dies before the timer is up. Also, they're directly made from the Factory with no need of any other tech, which means they get out much faster and much more readily than Spider Mines, which have to be researched, then placed by Vultures, with one Vulture only being able to produce a maximum of three.

Wish Id read this first.... :) Great info btw Draconis.

No splash to allied? Oh yeah, those things just got much moar beddur.... :)

DemolitionSquid
06-09-2012, 05:45 PM
Cant wait to use them in any case. :) I predict they will kill big time (in the beginning) until everyone starts blind-building detectors to keep with their army

I'm honestly confused why people don't blind build more detectors anyway versus Zerg because of Banelings. MLG is on right now and several people would have had different results if they'd just kept a single Raven with their army.

Kimera757
06-09-2012, 08:16 PM
Do warhounds still do anti-air? And if so, do they have splash? I heard at Teamliquid they're anti-ground only. Starting to step on the marauder's toes...

DemolitionSquid
06-09-2012, 08:33 PM
Do warhounds still do anti-air? And if so, do they have splash? I heard at Teamliquid they're anti-ground only. Starting to step on the marauder's toes...

No AA on the Warhound. You should check out my new thread (shameless self promotion FTW).

Jconant
06-09-2012, 09:51 PM
by the time a stargate can come out, other races should have access to detection...no?

DemolitionSquid
06-09-2012, 09:58 PM
by the time a stargate can come out, other races should have access to detection...no?

Only if they scout it, just like now with fast Void/Ray Phoenix. Really though, simply picture a regular 3 gate push where everything is a DT. That's crazy.

Jconant
06-09-2012, 10:00 PM
Then it may be a problem for less skilled players who dont scout well, but that tech path may be a good way for toss to endure mid game fights; the cloaking and conquering air would give warpgate units an edge against terran bio balls.

Carsickness
06-10-2012, 12:10 AM
Only if they scout it, just like now with fast Void/Ray Phoenix. Really though, simply picture a regular 3 gate push where everything is a DT. That's crazy.

lol, exactly what I was thinking.
From what i'm reading though; it costs 100 energy to cloak, meaning you'de have to wait for the energy to build up.
But the current build of the mothership core can max a unit's energy for only 25 of its own...
This means enough for 2 cloaks for the price of a chrono boost.

I like :)

Jconant
06-10-2012, 02:00 AM
I really like the mothership core and its flexibility; you can use it to push an offensive and charge up units for a fast cloaking/ massive economic harassment

at the risk of not being able to recall troops back or activate the "purifier".

The_Blade
06-10-2012, 11:33 AM
Battle Report 2 coming up:

Z-tNFR0HEDs

Alar
06-10-2012, 11:18 PM
I'd love to see them release another battle report where the people are actually playing smart, rather than concentrating on showcasing the new units. I appreciate it, but the Terran could've done so much better if he hadn't been so limited.

The_Blade
06-10-2012, 11:35 PM
I'd love to see them release another battle report where the people are actually playing smart, rather than concentrating on showcasing the new units. I appreciate it, but the Terran could've done so much better if he hadn't been so limited.

Sadly, the meta game will follow the same pattern it did during WoL's development and release. We will see many "pros" rising and falling because of the constant patching and changes in the meta game of HotS. It will only be two years later that we will see pure strategy and smart players at the top of the ladder. Then, LotV will be released.

sandwich_bird
06-11-2012, 01:13 AM
Pure mech still looks bad. I mean, pros are gonna be able to pull it off but not the general population. It's way too apm intensive now. I mean, setting up siege tanks and widow mine is gonna be really hard. Spider mines were easier to set up back in the days.

Aldrius
06-11-2012, 04:53 AM
I'd love to see them release another battle report where the people are actually playing smart, rather than concentrating on showcasing the new units. I appreciate it, but the Terran could've done so much better if he hadn't been so limited.

I really don't think this was staged. I know it seems like it was, but with the volume of games they play, there has to be at least a few real games that work for their purposes.

RamiZ
06-11-2012, 06:23 AM
I really don't think this was staged. I know it seems like it was, but with the volume of games they play, there has to be at least a few real games that work for their purposes.

Yeah, I think that they played a lot of games, and picked up the ones that were interesting. It really didn't look like it was staged, at least not to me.

mr. peasant
06-11-2012, 08:34 AM
I wouldn't say staged but at least directed - i.e. told to focus on using new units and not to go for the quick kill.

Quirel
06-11-2012, 08:39 AM
-Mothership Core: Um...what? What genius protoss scientist decided that it would be a good idea to take out a mothership core and put it on a nexus? From a gameplay standard it works fine, but just give the nexus the same abilities. But from a lore one, it seems like an absurd decision.
Perhaps it's a core salvaged from a damaged Mothership? After several billion hours of WoL multiplayer, there ought to be a few lying around. ;D

Also, if you think about it, a Mothership has a lot of habitation and life support space that's not needed on the battlefield. I guess that stuff could be stripped away for a more battleworthy unit, but that's blown to hell by the fact that you can upgrade the Core into a full mothership.


-Tempest: Bit similar to the brood lord, but I can appreciate that the difference between attacks and spawned broodlings is indeed different. Like the unit overall.
I'm a little confused, as this seems to give the Protoss two aerial siege units. Does it perform better against units than the Void Ray?


-Battle Hellion: Personally, I'd rather have a firebat. Yes, that would probably be unit overlap, but it's still preferable to having a transforming buggy. And Hellions have a distinct place in multiplayer matches as hit and run units, even if I found them rather useless. Again, I'd prefer a firebat.
Gameplay-wise, it's an attempt to make the Hellion useful in late-game.
Lore-wise, it doesn't make sense. Where does the extra armor come from?


-Warhound: Don't like the new animation, but I like the unit itself.



-Widow mine: Mixed. On one hand, I like that spider mines are back in some form. On the other, why are the mines attatching themselves to ground units instead of just detonating? Balance reasons I guess, but again, I can't think of an in-universe explanation.
Well, it works for plasma grenades.
In-universe, the Widow mine is probably smaller than its apparent size, and would be designed to attach to the underside of vehicles. Much less noticeable than one would think, and the delay gives it time to crawl around and find a weak point.

The ability to latch onto infantry is a result of the programmer being a fan of Spider Mines II: They Walk. As for leaping dozens of meters into the air and latching onto air units, what can I say? Their hearts are in it.


-Ultralisk charge: Like the idea, but why underground? It seems a bit strange in-universe as to how moving underground is faster than travelling above it. On the other hand, love the animation behind the technique.
Yeah, it seems weird to me too, but I guess it's supposed to differentiate itself from the Zealot charge.

Otherwise:

Battlecruiser Speed Boost: It's about time.
Reaper Health, no grenades: Can't see this lasting long.

RamiZ
06-11-2012, 10:04 AM
Yeah, it seems weird to me too, but I guess it's supposed to differentiate itself from the Zealot charge.
It is not that, but because of the gameplay. If they had just charge, it would be close to useless. Unlike Zealots, Ultras are fast already, but they have problem with being huge, so they start to bug around, not being able to attack because of Zerglings and other Ultras. With burrow charge, that problem is gone, because they can get underneath the unit.

Kimera757
06-11-2012, 10:36 AM
Perhaps it's a core salvaged from a damaged Mothership? After several billion hours of WoL multiplayer, there ought to be a few lying around. ;D

:)


I'm a little confused, as this seems to give the Protoss two aerial siege units. Does it perform better against units than the Void Ray?

In the first Battle Report, we saw it worked amazingly with a spotter, especially the oracle. (Void rays don't have great range, and don't benefit from a spotter.) With a range of 22, you pretty much require your opponent to have air to fight it.

The_Blade
06-11-2012, 11:01 AM
I really don't know how Terrans will be able to deal with Tempests. They only have the viking to deal with them on only-air map spots, while the Zerg has Mutalisks, Corruptors and Vipers.

topsecret221
06-11-2012, 12:16 PM
Gameplay-wise, it's an attempt to make the Hellion useful in late-game.
Lore-wise, it doesn't make sense. Where does the extra armor come from?

Well, how about this: is a structure more stable with all of the supports completely upright and parallel, or with the supports crossing over one another and supporting each other, as well as the house?

Lore-wise, I can understand, because the configuration of something can easily impact its toughness. That's why carbon nanotubes are so much stronger than, say, a slate of carbon.

On the subject of the Tempest, though, I really don't think it will be used in PvT. I mean, there aren't enough new units to change the basic layout of your average lategame army (maybe an extra Oracle, but that's it). Considering this, it means Colossi. Colossi mean Vikings. And of course, Vikings mean that Tempests can be shut down quite easily. For an equal investment in Vikings and Tempest, I'm fairly certain that Vikings would come out on top (feel free to correct my math on that).

Jconant
06-11-2012, 12:50 PM
The tempest would be a good option to out snipe vikings and siege tanks. Colossi have the same range so you end up having the problem of needing a good number to even attempt to fight and you risk losing some in the process. Same goes for the void ray vs viking- they'll get in range of marines too.

What im unsure of though is the damage output of the tempest. How effective would they be at fighting corruptors or vikings? Am I going to need a large stalker force or void rays in the mix?

Kimera757
06-11-2012, 12:57 PM
Tempests have a low DPS due to a slow cooldown. I think Vikings can deal with them pretty easily, unfortunately, they're probably the only terran unit that can do so.

Corruptors do bonus damage to massive units, whereas they are not themselves massive.

Aldrius
06-11-2012, 01:15 PM
I wouldn't say staged but at least directed - i.e. told to focus on using new units and not to go for the quick kill.

I don't...see the point in that. Like are you basing all this on the fact that they're not making the tactical decisions you would? They could just be bad players.

As for the Tempest, I think it has a massive bonus. And large damage + slow attack rate usually means it's designed for taking on big things that there are few of. (i.e. If you're killing zerglings or mutalisks one at a time, you're not going to be very effective against them.) But I'm not sure how that works with the Void Ray. I like the Void Ray better mechanically, but the Tempest has such a cool design.

I dunno how they're going to make it work, though. Right now it's just so generic... it's a big floating capital ship with huge amounts of range. The fact that it's a 22 range flying unit is so crazy. It's not uncounterable by ground (uh... I don't think...?), but it's so sloppy and there's nothing really that interesting about it from a mechanics point of view to me.

Jconant
06-11-2012, 01:18 PM
the zerg with the combo of hydra + the new caster proved to work well at taking them out.

Kimera757
06-11-2012, 01:30 PM
Abduct has a limited range (too short, IMO). If the protoss player is holding the tempest over space or otherwise impassable terrain, the zerg player must use air. Vipers would only be marginally useful there; it just gets the tempest to the flying attackers a bit faster.

Visions of Khas
06-11-2012, 01:38 PM
I'm just afraid all a protoss player will have to do now is craete a swarm of Pheonix around a squadron of Tempests and that's it, game over man. Game over.

MulletBen
06-11-2012, 05:59 PM
Tempests appear to do very little DPS. I feel like, with 22 range, there will be a fine line between overpowered and useless. I'd hate to see the Tempest go the way of the carrier, but I'd also hate to see a swarm of tempests that you can never get any units close enough to to fight. That said, I think corruptors and vikings will be more than enough to deal with tempests as they are in the alpha build.

Oracle looks incredibly good, but things to keep in mind are that 1) they are incredibly low health (20 health 80 shields), 2) they have no attack and very limited battle use, and 3) they cost a large chunk of minerals and vespene (150/200). So while they will certainly be able to do a whole lot of economic damage, you will leave yourself quite vulnerable to any attack. Sniping an oracle shouldn't be too hard with queens, and you should probably e building spore crawlers already if you haven't scouted.

Mothership core is a great solution to problems that could have arisen when they had similar abilities on the nexus. First of all, it means protoss will be limited in the number of times they can recall. With every nexus having that ability, you'd be able to, on 3 bases, recall your army a nearly unlimited number of times. This gives protoss extra mobility, and greater options both offensively and defensively. Also, this way the abilities don't conflict with chrono boost, which is working perfectly fine as it is. The ability to turn a nexus into a planetary fortress is good for helping protoss take and defend bases that are farther away from their main, which is good for PvP, but also means that maps can now have thirds that are farther away, which is good for gameplay in all matchups imo. It also functions differently than a Terran planetary fortress, however, because you can only have one of them. Instead of choosing between economy and defense, the choice lies in which nexus needs to be defended. Restore energy seems like an ability that is just tacked on to give the mothership core another ability, although it might be interesting when used in cojunction with chronoboost, as I have heard you can cast it on nexuses.

As for Terran, the warhound still looks ugly (though it has improved), but it should make mech viable in TvP, which is exciting. I only hope it doesn't replace siege tanks, since without them mech isn't interesting at all. Battle hellions are basically firebats, but they share production structures and upgrades with mech units, making mech better to use. It also means that the risk that comes with producing hellions is drastically reduced, since they are better in a straight engagement. A couple months ago I would have said this was a bad thing, but ever since the range buff for queens, hellions have all but disappeared. This buff should more than bring them back.

Widow mines are absurdly strong in their current form, and can make Terran immune to mutalisk harass for an absurdly low cost. Plus, they do like 200 freaking damage. As long as they kill anything more expensive than a zealot, they've already paid for themselves.

Swarm hosts Are probably the biggest addition to zerg play. They give Zerg an opportunity to end the game somewhere between a roach-baneling all-in and hive tech. They also give zerg the ability to apply potentially game-ending pressure that ISN'T completely all-in before hive tech. At the moment, they look really really ridiculously good. With 25 second lifespan locusts, swarm hosts can almost certainly outrange even Tempests. Plus locusts have as much health as marines with combat shields on their combat shields and do more dps than roaches. Love this unit.

Viper should be interesting, although I have a feeling blinding cloud won't be used outside of ZvZ. Against Protoss it is absolutely worthless, and I don't know any situation where I would rather have a blinding cloud than a fungal. Still, Abduct seems like a useful ability, although I don't know if it justifies te 200 gas cost. Withholding judgement on this one for now.

Burrow move banelings are gone :'(

Burrow-charge ultralisks look really good. Between seeing them in the battle reports and watching WoL ultralisks tear things apart at MLG, I'm dearly worried for bio in HOTS. I was worried before that it would be too similar to zealot charge, but it turns out it is really quite different. It isn't auto-cast, has a significantly larger cooldown, from what I can tell, does a bunch of splash damage, and, of course, involves the ultralisks burrowing underground. I still don't understand how they are able to burrow, tunnel, and unburrow under their enemies in less time than it takes them to burrow normally, but it should help them get around not only enemy forces but their own as well to get right into the battle. I am worried, however, that the ultras will be so good that bio will be useless against them. Especially since right now MMM is the best way to deal with them, this makes Ultras counter their own counter. Since Ultras are no longer frenzied, I anticipate that using the thor's strike cannons will be the weapon of choice against ultras, as it was in the WoL beta. Should be interesting.

Hydras are faster off creep, which might be cool if they weren't still made of tissue paper. And not even the good kind; the crappy kind that you blow your nose into and then it breaks and you get snot all over your hands.

Overall, 9/10

mr. peasant
06-11-2012, 07:21 PM
I don't...see the point in that. Like are you basing all this on the fact that they're not making the tactical decisions you would? They could just be bad players.

Basing it on the function of the video and what occurred onscreen. Blizzard needs the Battle Report to last long enough to feature HotS gameplay. Ergo, no rushing allowed - at least not to the point it kills the opponent or leaves him/her in an unrecoverable position. Note how every Battle Report has always been about 20-30 minutes long. Secondly, they manage to feature all the new units - either showing them excelling at their intended use and/or being squashed by their ideal counter.

Of course, you could always claim that Blizzard could have scanned the hundreds upon hundreds of internal matches they've recorded but getting two players together and telling them which strategies to employ and how hard to push is much, much easier.

RamiZ
06-11-2012, 07:51 PM
Viper should be interesting, although I have a feeling blinding cloud won't be used outside of ZvZ. Against Protoss it is absolutely worthless, and I don't know any situation where I would rather have a blinding cloud than a fungal. Still, Abduct seems like a useful ability, although I don't know if it justifies te 200 gas cost. Withholding judgement on this one for now.
Good review MulletBen, this is the only thing I disagree. Blinding Cloud will mostly be used against Terran bio, which forces Terran to micro, or to go for mech, and even if they go for mech, abduct is extremely useful.

You said that you don't see the reason why would you use Blinding cloud instead of the Fungal? Well, if you have watched MLG matches, you saw that when Terran has enough Medivacs, fungal just doesn't do enough damage to kill anything. You surround his army with huge numbers of Zerglings and Roaches, followed up with few fungals, and after 5-6 seconds, you realize that all your units are gone, while half of his units are on red, half full hp.

This ability will force Terran to micro, which is great thing, I am an Zerg player, and I think that fungal would be 10 times better as a slow instead of a root. It just breaks the game, you are killing half of his stuff by just chain fungals, and he can't move at all. When Terran has huge force of Marines, Medivacs and Marauders, even with great fungals, Terran just has sick fire power and will probably kill all your units before you kill his. So, how about blinding cloud and fungal on top of that? That sounds completely broken to me, and I hope that they will do something about fungal growth.

TcheQuevara
06-12-2012, 09:22 AM
Cloud + Fungal would be a killer and boring combo. I know it would be rare, and costy. Still, I agree with Ramiz, and I think that maybe HotS is an opportunity to switch Fungal to a slow debuff. But a slow debuff is also a micro denier.

Talking about micro deniers (Fungal and FFs being the classical exemples), I think that removing frenzy from Ultras is a good thing. As MulletBen pointed, now Ultras could be countered by Thors. Any thing that is invencible, or an automatic succes, of a "Save or Die", limits the possibilities of the game. Now Ultras will have a mobility buff, rather than a "mobility debuff imunity". Not sure about Abduct though. I like how it brings some positional strategy to the game (or so the Report made it seem), but maybe, if it could be denied by moving the target away it could be even better.

Do you think there are others "something-deniers" in the game that could be ripped?

I think that the Viper's design so far is unusual. It has got only one use in ZvP. I don't know of any other caster with no attack and just one use in a certain match. I think this design philosophy is very different from WoL's. They're batlantly trying to fill up holes, so weird things appear. They mentioned the Warhound is in it's tenth version...

In Blizzcon, my favorite new units were the Zerg ones. They were so solid that they are still the same. But my new favorites are the Protoss. Gone from tottally lame to really interesting. Oracle and Core will obviously add versatility. I think Tempest will do the same, it currently does something unprecedented in Blizzard RTS games. I hope the range upgrade is kept.

About the Core's "loreability", I think this is easy. The Motherships are rare, but not because they big giant pieces of metal. They are a masterpiece of a psychic race that can store people inside crystals. If the Motherships are such a Masterpiece, and remember, Nexus are the "anchor" that holds the "psionic web" in certain planet or region, one of the possibilities of the Mommaship would be kind of "fuse" with the Nexi, and like a transcendent Megazord, achieve even greater control of time and space. Now, why would you have to pay more to make it back into a ship, that makes no sense, but half of lore cracks in MP anyway.

And sue me, but I liked the previous Warhound more. Yeah, I know it needed to be polished, but the that clanky look is what gave BW Terrans so much personality. Now they're too much "epic" and clean and space-opera standard.

(yay, debut post :) )

Aldrius
06-12-2012, 09:34 AM
Basing it on the function of the video and what occurred onscreen. Blizzard needs the Battle Report to last long enough to feature HotS gameplay. Ergo, no rushing allowed - at least not to the point it kills the opponent or leaves him/her in an unrecoverable position. Note how every Battle Report has always been about 20-30 minutes long. Secondly, they manage to feature all the new units - either showing them excelling at their intended use and/or being squashed by their ideal counter.

Of course, you could always claim that Blizzard could have scanned the hundreds upon hundreds of internal matches they've recorded but getting two players together and telling them which strategies to employ and how hard to push is much, much easier.

I guess I just don't see scanning games for ones they want is really all that hard.

People are going to be testing the new units regardless. I dunno if they have to be told to do that.

RamiZ
06-12-2012, 10:00 AM
And sue me, but I liked the previous Warhound more. Yeah, I know it needed to be polished, but the that clanky look is what gave BW Terrans so much personality. Now they're too much "epic" and clean and space-opera standard.
Well, tastes are different I guess. :P
But to be honest, new Warhound isn't something original, it reminds me on Dreadnought from Warhammer 40k, even though Dreadnoughts are a lot more bulkier than Warhound, it is like an taller version of Dreadnought.

And the old Warhound looks... I just don't know, like that it is made scrapped parts and model looks ridiculous.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1252429_99120101014_SMDreadnoughtmain_873x627.jpg
Dreadnought.

http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/hots_anaheim/Terran_Warhound.jpg
New Warhound.

http://cdn.gamerant.com/wp-content/uploads/starcraft-2-heart-of-the-swarm-warhound-570x333.jpg
Old Warhound.

mr. peasant
06-12-2012, 10:35 AM
I guess I just don't see scanning games for ones they want is really all that hard.

People are going to be testing the new units regardless. I dunno if they have to be told to do that.

I feel it is. No matter how quickly you scan through the footage, you're still talking multiple hours' worth of work before you can be certain you have a good one. Far, far simpler and quicker to just direct two players what you want to have featured.

phazonjunkie
06-12-2012, 12:00 PM
(yay, debut post :) )


http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/84/9fe318686a8949528e198174b35866c3/l.jpg

Welcome to SCLegacy!:D

Jconant
06-12-2012, 12:28 PM
Do you think the mobility of the hydralisk and ultralisk are going to make them a lil op?

DemolitionSquid
06-12-2012, 01:36 PM
Do you think the mobility of the hydralisk and ultralisk are going to make them a lil op?

The extra speed is just to get them into and out of combat more effectively, same for the battle cruiser. They'll be no more overpowered than Reaper or Roach speed upgrades are now - which is none.

handclaw
06-12-2012, 04:59 PM
I feel it is. No matter how quickly you scan through the footage, you're still talking multiple hours' worth of work before you can be certain you have a good one. Far, far simpler and quicker to just direct two players what you want to have featured.

But then why didn't they feature the Warhound? There were two games, Zerg versus Protoss and Zerg versus Terran. If they directed it to showcase all the units, they would have gone the extra step to tell them to make a Terran versus Protoss match so that the Warhound could have a chance to shine. But well, they didn't.

Sheliek
06-12-2012, 05:23 PM
But then why didn't they feature the Warhound? There were two games, Zerg versus Protoss and Zerg versus Terran. If they directed it to showcase all the units, they would have gone the extra step to tell them to make a Terran versus Protoss match so that the Warhound could have a chance to shine. But well, they didn't.

The expansion is zerg focused. A protoss vs. terran Battle Report WILL come out, that much is certain. They simply chose to showcase the zerg-oriented matchups first for obvious reasons.

DeltaCadimus
06-12-2012, 05:48 PM
So, I've seen the videos recently, but I didn't have the time to comment on them since I've been without any internet support for the last couple of days. Anyways, based on my views on all battle reports, here's my comment on several stuff:

- This Mothership Core thing will only be useful to pull people out of tight spots. If they want to make the 'Purify' ability more useful, Blizzard should buff the damage of the cannon (More than Planetary Fortress) and/or make it an AoE attack.

-I feel that AoE should be added to the Tempest's gun as well, as it's going to replace the Carrier and there's nothing no one will do anything about it.

- Either the Viper or Infestor (Mostly Viper) should be pushed to Hive tech. While PvZ is still viable (If people WILL REMEMBER the High Templar Feedback), TvZ and ZvZ will not, as people will keep losing Siege Tanks and Brood Lords to Abduct. Of course that's the idea, but, in the extreme case, raise the energy cost of Abduct.

- So far, the only unit I see to be faring well and in a satisfactory gameplay terms is the Battle Hellion. I'm still to see the Warhound, which I have to disagree (Anti-Mechanical missiles is pure, blantant hard counter).

/edit

- Also, Reaper anti-structure attack could be a mid-game research. (Needing Ghost Academy or Starport)

Sheliek
06-12-2012, 05:50 PM
So, I've seen the videos recently, but I didn't have the time to comment on them since I've been without any internet support for the last couple of days. Anyways, based on my views on all battle reports, here's my comment on several stuff:

- This Mothership Core thing will only be useful to pull people out of tight spots. If they want to make the 'Purify' ability more useful, Blizzard should buff the damage of the cannon (More than Planetary Fortress) and/or make it an AoE attack.

-I feel that AoE should be added to the Tempest's gun as well, as it's going to replace the Carrier and there's nothing no one will do anything about it.

- Either the Viper or Infestor (Mostly Viper) should be pushed to Hive tech. While PvZ is still viable (If people WILL REMEMBER the High Templar Feedback), TvZ and ZvZ will not, as people will keep losing Siege Tanks and Brood Lords to Abduct. Of course that's the idea, but, in the extreme case, raise the energy cost of Abduct.

- So far, the only unit I see to be faring well and in a satisfactory gameplay terms is the Battle Hellion. I'm still to see the Warhound, which I have to disagree (Anti-Mechanical missiles is pure, blantant hard counter).
Viper is hive-tech, currently.

DeltaCadimus
06-12-2012, 06:03 PM
Viper is hive-tech, currently.

Hmm... I remember seeing in one of the videos that Viper was Lair-tech. Well, need a confirm on this anyways.

RamiZ
06-12-2012, 06:25 PM
Hmm... I remember seeing in one of the videos that Viper was Lair-tech. Well, need a confirm on this anyways.
It was Lair tech at the Blizzcon build as far as I know, but now it seems that it is Hive Tech, which is actually pretty good balance-wise.

In both Battle reports, Zerg players quickly upgraded Lair to Hive so they could get Hydra's speed upgrade, and Vipers. Before that, they were both massing Swarm Hosts.

The_Blade
06-12-2012, 07:26 PM
Because Swarm Hosts require an Infestation Pit it is much easier for Zerg to look for Hive tech.

DemolitionSquid
06-12-2012, 07:48 PM
Because Swarm Hosts require an Infestation Pit it is much easier for Zerg to look for Hive tech.

I find it weird the Swarm Host requires the Infestation Pit. Its like they're saying the Locusts are infesting the Swarm Host to be ironic.

The_Blade
06-12-2012, 07:56 PM
What are you talking about! Gameplay has always respected lore!

But seriously, the Swarm Host should have his own building. Zerg macro is way too easy, IMHO. Building something should "add" a little challenge.

DeltaCadimus
06-12-2012, 09:15 PM
What are you talking about! Gameplay has always respected lore!

But seriously, the Swarm Host should have his own building. Zerg macro is way too easy, IMHO. Building something should "add" a little challenge.

Adding new buildings is the LAST thing Blizzard ever wants to do. In BW, Lurkers required Hydra Dens and Devourers needed the Greater Spire, remember?

Sheliek
06-12-2012, 10:51 PM
What are you talking about! Gameplay has always respected lore!

But seriously, the Swarm Host should have his own building. Zerg macro is way too easy, IMHO. Building something should "add" a little challenge.
I actually had someone concept art a building for the swarm host because I knew it wouldn't get one, LOL.

Agreed, though.

The_Blade
06-12-2012, 10:52 PM
Adding new buildings is the LAST thing Blizzard ever wants to do. In BW, Lurkers required Hydra Dens and Devourers needed the Greater Spire, remember?

They added a research for lurkers, too, which was quite expensive IIRC. Either a building, evolution or research is needed to help other races handle Zerg. The buildings would be best. I would hate having to guess if he is going Infestors or Swarm Hosts. We would face a similar problem to the scenario of the current TvP rant. If I see a Greater Spire or an Ultras Cavern I know what to build before the Broodlords or Ultras come stomping down the map. In a similar way we scout Terran's add-ons and Protoss tech buildings. I don't see why scouting a Zerg should be any different.

Crazy_Jonny
06-13-2012, 12:08 AM
lol the only thing that looks terribly unbalanced is the tempest. Actually I think giving the carrier more range coulda worked out just as well. Otherwise give protoss a real anti air unit. If they don't either change the tempest back or buff the phoenix then nothing in the protoss anti air was really fixed.

I can only come to the conclusion if the Tempest stays 'as is' design wise is because they're holding out for LotV. Surely it shouldn't have 22 range by then. XD

Aldrius
06-13-2012, 07:17 AM
lol the only thing that looks terribly unbalanced is the tempest. Actually I think giving the carrier more range coulda worked out just as well.

No it wouldn't... they have completely different kinds of attacks. Carriers basically have the attack of like 8 marines.

Tempests fire slightly weaker siege tank blasts.

Amph
06-13-2012, 07:18 AM
they should make more mutation, roach--->swarm host(reaserch upgrade, like the lurker) and the vipers can have their own building

Aldrius
06-13-2012, 07:20 AM
they should make more mutation, roach--->swarm host(reaserch upgrade, like the lurker) and the vipers can have their own building

Research upgrades are really dumb, you can't scout them at all. And eh, I don't think the roach is the right unit to mutate into the swarm host at all.

I don't think adding one tech building to each race would really be that awful, but I dunno. They don't usually add buildings to expansions. I don't think the Infestor and Swarm Host sharing tech really works that well, but I dunno what else the Swarm Host could share tech with.

Amph
06-13-2012, 07:25 AM
i like research upgrade, the more the better for me, as it is now does not make any sense, at least they should give them their own building, but i prefer mutation, is more zergish

RamiZ
06-13-2012, 08:13 AM
In a similar way we scout Terran's add-ons and Protoss tech buildings. I don't see why scouting a Zerg should be any different.
You mean right now, why scouting a Terran should be any different right? As a Zerg player, scouting what will Terran do is a big problem to me. You scout him, and he has Barracks, Factories and Starports. If he has Starports with tech labs, it could mean Banshees or Ravens(even though Ravens are highly unlikely, I've seen some games with massing them on high level, let's assume they are viable), if I see Factory with Tech Lab upgrading something, it could be Thor's cannon, Siege Tank upgrade or Blue Flame for Hellions. And from all this you are defending with different units.

And even if you scout for example one Starport with Reactor, few Barracks with some of them having tech labs and one Factory with tech lab, he can just switch add-ons and start massing Banshees with Cloak.

TheEconomist
06-13-2012, 09:19 AM
Most of Zerg's unit buildings are also tech buildings. Without looking at units, its the hardest to see what they're going to do and the Zerg have the easiest time of completely shifting their unit composition. Meanwhile, Protoss has the hardest time scouting because they don't have flying Pylons or scanners.

The_Blade
06-13-2012, 12:03 PM
You mean right now, why scouting a Terran should be any different right? As a Zerg player, scouting what will Terran do is a big problem to me. You scout him, and he has Barracks, Factories and Starports. If he has Starports with tech labs, it could mean Banshees or Ravens(even though Ravens are highly unlikely, I've seen some games with massing them on high level, let's assume they are viable), if I see Factory with Tech Lab upgrading something, it could be Thor's cannon, Siege Tank upgrade or Blue Flame for Hellions. And from all this you are defending with different units.

It's not that complicated once you know what you are scouting. Going for a crazy build or something unexpected will hurt your oponents macro. Cloaked Banshees are one of the easiest things to scout, you'll see early gas and no expo. It's not only about the buildings but his timings on other stuff before he actually gets hellion production or stuff.

Most of the time, if I see many add-ons early on (7-9 min mark) without expansion, I'll try to choke his expos or attack for the kill. Terrans can't have cash for everything. Add-on production is expensive and that's why we see pros handle single techlabs until they get an expo.

The Thor canon is quite unlikely vs Zerg, and he will take the decision over your unit composition, which Zerg can switch pretty fast.


And even if you scout for example one Starport with Reactor, few Barracks with some of them having tech labs and one Factory with tech lab, he can just switch add-ons and start massing Banshees with Cloak.

Massing Banshees is not cost effective against Zerg. Through scouting you can find his starport before he gets 2-3 banshees and cloak. Then build spores and queens or whatever you like.


Most of Zerg's unit buildings are also tech buildings. Without looking at units, its the hardest to see what they're going to do and the Zerg have the easiest time of completely shifting their unit composition. Meanwhile, Protoss has the hardest time scouting because they don't have flying Pylons or scanners.

Zerg need creep to build their stuff. It is harder for them to hide their Tech. Against Zerg I like my Stargates. Some Void Rays will secure my expo and a Fenix will help me scout out his tech. Observers are best at finding their armies and hallucinations are quite useful for many things.

RamiZ
06-14-2012, 05:01 AM
Most of Zerg's unit buildings are also tech buildings. Without looking at units, its the hardest to see what they're going to do and the Zerg have the easiest time of completely shifting their unit composition. Meanwhile, Protoss has the hardest time scouting because they don't have flying Pylons or scanners.
Protoss has the hardest time scouting because the Hallucination is underused.

Also, Zerg can easily shift their unit composition because the race itself is like that. They are reactive race, they are reacting differently vs. every unit you have. Their units are a bit different from the units of other races.
Unlike other races, Zerg can't just make a few units from one kind and be good with it(except for Infestors), where if I go Mutas, Terran needs 1-2 Thors with his Marines, Marauders and Medics. If I go Banelings, he could go with 3-4 Siege Tanks, and try to snipe them, one Banshee can do enormous damage to the economy if it isn't scouted, or if the player hide the tech. Protoss also can succeed with 2-3 Immortals/Archons/Colossi/Void Rays etc.

I also wanted to say that Terran and Protoss has army that is built in every game, while Zerg doesn't. Terran is always going for Marines, Marauders, Tanks and Medivacs, while Protoss is always going for Stalkers, Zealots, Sentries and mostly Colossi. These army compositions can defend from everything that Zerg throws at them, of course you can add few different units to be really good vs. some type, for example few Thors/Phoenixes for Mutas, but that is it.
On the other hand, if I see Terran going for Drops, I have to go for Mutas, because it is pretty hard to defend with other units from drops. If I see Hellions, I have to go for Roaches, same vs. mech, if I see massing Marines, I have to go for Infestors/Banelings.

Zerg can be like that in Endgame, where Brood Lords, Infestors, Roaches and Lings can defeat basically everything, and that is why you see all of the Zerg rushing to the hive tech. In the middle game, the Zerg is playing on mobility card, because their units aren't as strong.

I want to say that I am not a pro player, and this shouldn't be really taken as a fact, but more like how things look from my angle. There a lot of other factors that change the outcome of the battle like micro, positioning, macro etc.

TheEconomist
06-14-2012, 10:44 AM
@RamiZ: Never thought differently :D


Zerg need creep to build their stuff. It is harder for them to hide their Tech.

True, but you can usually tell just as well what another race is going by whats NOT in their base. So, it's all basically the same. Zerg needing Creep isn't really that big of a deal.

The_Blade
06-16-2012, 02:07 PM
Some random interview with DB:

oqA-3hvErDg

MulletBen
06-17-2012, 10:43 PM
Shit guys, abduct + neural parasite. You pull a colossus into your own army and can take it over while keeping your infestors out of the range of the rest of the protoss army.

The_Blade
06-17-2012, 11:11 PM
Shit guys, abduct + neural parasite. You pull a colossus into your own army and can take it over while keeping your infestors out of the range of the rest of the protoss army.

You would need more casters to pull that off and that might harm your unit composition. It will help hard macro players on the lower ladder, but it might not be as op in the pro-level. Terrans have EMP to punish caster heavy armies and Protoss have cloak and blink Stalkers for sniping Vipers and mass recall to regroup. I'd say those are but a few things I have to say about the Zerg ability combos not being OP, but I'm pretty sure they will nerf zerg combos during the beta.

Todie
06-18-2012, 10:25 AM
I really don't know how Terrans will be able to deal with Tempests. They only have the viking to deal with them on only-air map spots, while the Zerg has Mutalisks, Corruptors and Vipers.

While vikings are an OK answer overall, its only one unit-type witch makes for a quite predictable and inflexible composition; ground units cant help out unless the tempests are assaulting from open ground, ravens can only offer support through PDD if the tempests are supported by primarily phoenixes.

BC's may be of some use, pending damage-specialization on the tempest (high bonus to massive?) and any speed-buffing ability on the BC.




[...]Tempests fire slightly weaker siege tank blasts.
No splash though, right?

... witch that insane range i cant see the damage being that high either. This raises the question of health-rgain to mitigate small scale tempest bombardment; auto repair and to a lesser extent transfuse could offset the whole damage output of one or more tempests with relative ease (especially if they target buildings or the highest HP units)

... If this is the case the protoss players will frequently want to hit a certain mark of say 3 tempests to be able to outweigh the helth-regain of the oponent to guarantee kills.

Cotcan
06-18-2012, 12:47 PM
You would need more casters to pull that off and that might harm your unit composition. It will help hard macro players on the lower ladder, but it might not be as op in the pro-level. Terrans have EMP to punish caster heavy armies and Protoss have cloak and blink Stalkers for sniping Vipers and mass recall to regroup. I'd say those are but a few things I have to say about the Zerg ability combos not being OP, but I'm pretty sure they will nerf zerg combos during the beta.

You forgot feedback on high templars. If you're not careful, your vipers and infestors can be killed just with feedback alone. I've killed medivacs before with just feedback. Course I do believe they had taken some damage, but had yellow hp.


No splash though, right?

... witch that insane range i cant see the damage being that high either. This raises the question of health-rgain to mitigate small scale tempest bombardment; auto repair and to a lesser extent transfuse could offset the whole damage output of one or more tempests with relative ease (especially if they target buildings or the highest HP units)

... If this is the case the protoss players will frequently want to hit a certain mark of say 3 tempests to be able to outweigh the helth-regain of the oponent to guarantee kills.

I do believe Tempests do have splash, but it takes them 6 seconds to fire again. Plus they cost 300 minerals, and 300 gas to produce one. If you aren't careful you can just be wasting money and losing your tempests. Corruptors and vikings will easily be able to take care of Tempests. Plus the Zerg with the viper can pull Tempests towards them. With how games normally go, terrans and zergs usually get corruptors and vikings for the collsi. That makes tempests harder to use without getting killed, unless you use the oracle.

Jconant
06-18-2012, 02:14 PM
That makes me concerned though with how a protoss should build. should a deathball now have less blink stalker and more voidrays to contend with viking/corruptors?

Hunter_I
06-19-2012, 08:48 AM
Well, well, well, let's see. Of all the new units only some seem to be having a real impact on the way the game will change.
1. Terrans get the no-brainer, 200 damage AOE "banelling" landmine with ground and air damage. Cool concept but looks like it will have to be nerfed bigtime, or it will just ruin any possible attack or defence with heavy (and costy) units. We say the widows used offensively vs the zerg.
2. Zerg get the perfect breaker of the deathball and siege/defense line, I think abduct will get nerfed or it will just ruin the only things that work vs the zerg overlow unit production.
3. Zerg also get a cloacked GTA GTG broodlord.
4. Speedy Hydra, common...
5. Toss get another (and rather good) caster, good supporter but supporter nevertheless.
6. Tempest has pathetic DPS, gimme back the (overall underused) carrier.

Looking forward for HoTS ...

Kimera757
06-19-2012, 09:00 AM
Well, well, well, let's see. Of all the new units only some seem to be having a real impact on the way the game will change.
1. Terrans get the no-brainer, 200 damage AOE "banelling" landmine with ground and air damage. Cool concept but looks like it will have to be nerfed bigtime, or it will just ruin any possible attack or defence with heavy (and costy) units. We say the widows used offensively vs the zerg.

I wouldn't call it a "no-brainer". The terran player wasted a bunch of mines in the Battle Report too against cheap units. (And lost as well.)


2. Zerg get the perfect breaker of the deathball and siege/defense line, I think abduct will get nerfed or it will just ruin the only things that work vs the zerg overlow unit production.

I think that's fine. Zerg have trouble using ground against entrenched positions. Only ultralisks are any good at that, and they die fast to siege tanks.


3. Zerg also get a cloacked GTA GTG broodlord.

Yeah. You shouldn't have to go air.


4. Speedy Hydra, common...

Hydras have a high cost per hit point. (They do very good damage, no complaints there, but they're also the tech level of the mutalisk.)


5. Toss get another (and rather good) caster, good supporter but supporter nevertheless.

It's astonishingly good. David Kim was saying in an interview they might give an audio warning anytime it shuts down minerals. (The zerg player might not have noticed simply due to being busy, whereas if the protoss player had snuck some Dark Templar into his base, he'd have known and fast.)


6. Tempest has pathetic DPS, gimme back the (overall underused) carrier.

I don't see why Blizzard couldn't just modify the carrier. I'm not sure why it's worse than in StarCraft I, but I think it has something to do with interceptor targeting/repairing.

Sheliek
06-19-2012, 01:09 PM
I genuinely believe creating different kinds of interceptor, as they'd experimented with in Alpha WoL, would be a good idea.

Crainy
06-21-2012, 04:42 PM
Im wondering if everything gets alittle too caster heavy.

Alar
06-26-2012, 07:41 AM
What are we averaging now? Like, two casters per race? No, that's not right. Protoss get three casters (HT, Oracle, Mothership), Zerg gets two (Viper, Infestor), and Terran get one (Ghost)?

Wait, is that really what it works out to? OH! No, the Raven still exists. I just hardly ever see it. Why don't they give the anti-mech missle thing to the Raven? Or, as I stated in another thread, turn it into an expensive upgrade for the Siege Tank.

The_Blade
06-26-2012, 09:51 AM
Terrans have: Ghost and Raven
Zerg have: Queens, Infestors and Vipers
Protoss have: Sentry, High Templar, Oracle and Mothership

TheEconomist
06-26-2012, 09:53 AM
No, the Raven still exists. I just hardly ever see it.

I used to never see Defilers in SCBW. Not a fault of the game, I was just playing trash. Puzzling how that works out, eh?

I also find it ironic that you mentioned the Mothership (the least used caster) and not the Sentry (probably the most used caster). Also, Zerg technically have/had Overseers which could possibly be considered casters.

phazonjunkie
06-26-2012, 10:08 AM
When you think about it though, it kinda makes sense for the Terrans to have less casters than the other races given how micro intensive their army is. virtually all of their units have some kind of activated ability. In a sense, almost all of them could possibly be thought of as 'casters'. Another dedicated spell unit might be redundant if you look at it like that.

DemolitionSquid
06-26-2012, 12:56 PM
When you think about it though, it kinda makes sense for the Terrans to have less casters than the other races given how micro intensive their army is. virtually all of their units have some kind of activated ability. In a sense, almost all of them could possibly be thought of as 'casters'. Another dedicated spell unit might be redundant if you look at it like that.

I wasn't aware A-moving Marauders was considered micro.

phazonjunkie
06-26-2012, 01:51 PM
I wasn't aware A-moving Marauders was considered micro.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-F9VWUgt6dGI/T2Cc2btqYEI/AAAAAAAAA84/1ig9rf6g8T0/s320/just+let+it+go.jpg

Alar
06-26-2012, 10:19 PM
Oh damn, I did miss the Sentry. I guess the reason I didn't mention it was because it -is- in every match-up. It HAS to be used by the Protoss, simply because it is so crucial to their tactics.

And while I do like added abilities and upgrades (Ultra Charge should be quite expensive, IMO), too many of them is just not... a good idea. Starcraft differentiates from Warcraft 3 in a number of ways, but one that comes to mind is the much smaller amount of abilities/casts.

TheEconomist
07-03-2012, 07:50 PM
it kinda makes sense for the Terrans to have less casters than the other races given how micro intensive their army is.

http://cdn1.fiverrcdn.com/photos/452993/medium/smacked_in_the_face.jpg?1318638782

phazonjunkie
07-04-2012, 06:03 PM
http://cdn1.fiverrcdn.com/photos/452993/medium/smacked_in_the_face.jpg?1318638782

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4c0934a77f8b9a5b36f10000/thank-you-sir-may-i-have-another.jpg

dar474greg
07-13-2012, 01:36 AM
So basically... the Protoss get a faster, shielded Guardian; and Zerg get the most annoying ability ever, Abduction. Well, at least Dark Swarm makes a comeback.

I just don't get the Mothership core... thing. Just give those abilities to the Nexus.




Hm, interesting thought. So, if I were terran, would it be a good idea to Widow Mine my tanks if I notice my Zerg opponent cranking out Vipers? He's essentially swallow down my... explosiveness. Yes, we'll go with that...


True, Zerg and it's superb ability. Zerg is still the best race for me, roaches are my favorite unit and I go them nearly every game.