PDA

View Full Version : An Obvious Change



TheProgramer
05-10-2012, 09:27 AM
Make Terran Addons Salvageable for 100%. It only makes sense.

Rake
05-10-2012, 10:15 AM
Make Terran Addons Salvageable for 100%. It only makes sense.

To make it balanced the addons should also be salvageable to the other player if they have a unit nearby.

Oh, and it should insta-kill all marines on the map.

DemolitionSquid
05-10-2012, 11:45 AM
Make Terran Addons Salvageable for 100%. It only makes sense.

Because it's totally fair letting Terran proxy build with no real downside through salvage, while Protoss and Zerg always lose their Pylons/Creep Tumors once scouted and/or pushed back.

TheProgramer
05-10-2012, 12:18 PM
Because it's totally fair letting Terran proxy build with no real downside through salvage, while Protoss and Zerg always lose their Pylons/Creep Tumors once scouted and/or pushed back.

Yes of course, there shouldn't be any differences between the races, you're right.

DemolitionSquid
05-10-2012, 01:51 PM
Yes of course, there shouldn't be any differences between the races, you're right.

I'm all for diversity. But not at the cost of balance, which this idea clearly affects in a negative way from every conceivable mathematical and strategic angle. How do I know this? Because salvageable add-ons were in the WoL beta, as per this Karune QnA back in 2009, and the ability was scrapped.



Karune: Can the queen heal? Battle.net StarCraft II General Discussion Forum. Accessed 2009-06-30.

1) In the current build, for 100 energy, the Queen can heal a biological unit or building by 200 hit points.
2) For 50 energy, the Terran Orbital Command can increase a supply depot's supply provided by +8 permanently.
3) Terran Add-Ons, Bunkers, Sensor Towers, and Missile Turrets can be salvaged for 100% of its cost. Salvage currently takes 5 seconds to complete.
4) Yes, the Banshee portrait is of a female pilot.
5) Vespene gas can still become depleted from geysers. Most geysers have 2500 gas each.

The_Blade
05-10-2012, 01:53 PM
LOL I wouldn't mind pylons being able to relocate themselves within their power circle.

DemolitionSquid
05-10-2012, 01:58 PM
LOL I wouldn't mind pylons being able to relocate themselves within their power circle.

Another interesting point: it's already enough Terran can lift their main structures and burrow their depots. Their units are nigh impossible to get stuck in a badly planned base or mis-rally. Protoss and Zerg do not have that option in any way (other than Zerg Crawlers). Salvageable add-ons would just be icing on the already noob-friendly Terran cake.

RetlocLive
05-10-2012, 03:49 PM
Well, Protoss DID have the teleporting Photon Cannons in the beta. lol

DemolitionSquid
05-10-2012, 03:58 PM
Well, Protoss DID have the teleporting Photon Cannons in the beta. lol

1. They were canned because (and I quote), "mobile defensive structures felt more 'Zergy.'" Hence, Spine and Spore Crawlers.
2. They did not teleport, they uprooted and moved exactly like Crawlers do now.

Gurluash
05-12-2012, 07:19 AM
They used the model of the upgraded cannon.
I believe it was called Phase Cannon, the Photon cannon model was scrapped.

TheEconomist
05-12-2012, 08:09 AM
Why not just make the Terran win button a hot key instead of a button?

DemolitionSquid
05-12-2012, 09:14 AM
Why not just make the Terran win button a hot key instead of a button?

Because a good Terran player knows the real victory comes from letting your opponent think they have a chance, then watching their soul get crushed and leak out as sweet raging tears.

Todie
05-12-2012, 09:26 AM
Terran buildings that lift off should have a timer aplied to them: after a certain time, say 90 seconds, the floating bulding should start losing hitpoints, until its landed again.

DemolitionSquid
05-12-2012, 09:34 AM
Terran buildings that lift off should have a timer aplied to them: after a certain time, say 90 seconds, the floating bulding should start losing hitpoints, until its landed again.

Well that would certainly solve a lot of the stalemates we see.

While it seems obvious that since Zerg structures die without creep, Terran structures should die without land, I think this kind of thing would need extensive testing.

TheEconomist
05-12-2012, 10:32 AM
Because a good Terran player knows the real victory comes from letting your opponent think they have a chance, then watching their soul get crushed and leak out as sweet raging tears.

Ahhhh, so that's what my Terran mind-fucking has been missing. Many thanks to thee, Great One!

Rake
05-12-2012, 04:42 PM
Terran buildings that lift off should have a timer aplied to them: after a certain time, say 90 seconds, the floating bulding should start losing hitpoints, until its landed again.

Please, please let them implement this.

TheProgramer
05-14-2012, 10:45 AM
Because it's totally fair letting Terran proxy build with no real downside through salvage, while Protoss and Zerg always lose their Pylons/Creep Tumors once scouted and/or pushed back.

You're right having to lift off two of your producion facilites and having them not producing for the grossly long time it takes them to fly back to your base is really a plus if u think about it. Congrats DemoSquid u made me upset with you again.

DemolitionSquid
05-14-2012, 01:03 PM
You're right having to lift off two of your producion facilites and having them not producing for the grossly long time it takes them to fly back to your base is really a plus if u think about it. Congrats DemoSquid u made me upset with you again.

Unit Build Time =/= Structure Value

Its an extremely rare case where a loss of unit building time is equal to the loss of a complete structure in this game. 100% of the time, every person here would prefer their Barracks floating for 30 seconds than to completely lose their Barracks. When nothing is building from that floating Barracks, only time is lost. The resources that could have been used to build something from it can be re-allocated. But a Barracks that is killed is automatically 150 minerals of your strength completely removed from the game, alongside the build time and cost of a replacement Barracks (if you so choose to build one).

The complete loss of a structure will almost always be more detrimental to your game than the time it isn't "actively" in play.

TheProgramer
05-14-2012, 04:02 PM
Unit Build Time =/= Structure Value

Its an extremely rare case where a loss of unit building time is equal to the loss of a complete structure in this game. 100% of the time, every person here would prefer their Barracks floating for 30 seconds than to completely lose their Barracks. When nothing is building from that floating Barracks, only time is lost. The resources that could have been used to build something from it can be re-allocated. But a Barracks that is killed is automatically 150 minerals of your strength completely removed from the game, alongside the build time and cost of a replacement Barracks (if you so choose to build one).

The complete loss of a structure will almost always be more detrimental to your game than the time it isn't "actively" in play.

I agree its not as bad. But I didn't say that it wasn't did I? I was adressing this:
Because it's totally fair letting Terran proxy build with no real downside through salvage, while Protoss and Zerg always lose their Pylons/Creep Tumors once scouted and/or pushed back.

See the words NO REAL DOWNSIDE? Have the production facilites your proxied with out of commision for some time is a real downside. Next time read what i'm is responding to.

DemolitionSquid
05-14-2012, 05:17 PM
I agree its not as bad. But I didn't say that it wasn't did I? I was adressing this:

See the words NO REAL DOWNSIDE? Have the production facilites your proxied with out of commision for some time is a real downside. Next time read what i'm is responding to.

Ah I see, I misinterpreted your point.

Still, my original point remains valid. Terran have numerous outs the other races do not get and the game is on a knifes edge balance right now. Building a proxy is a "risk vs reward" move, and ultimately the risk is significantly lower for Terran players. Terran currently have the option to save their investment when Protoss and Zerg do not. Giving them even more ways to correct their mistakes is irrational.

TheProgramer
05-14-2012, 05:54 PM
Ah I see, I misinterpreted your point.

Still, my original point remains valid. Terran have numerous outs the other races do not get and the game is on a knifes edge balance right now. Building a proxy is a "risk vs reward" move, and ultimately the risk is significantly lower for Terran players. Terran currently have the option to save their investment when Protoss and Zerg do not. Giving them even more ways to correct their mistakes is irrational.

I don't think the amount saved with the salvage will make that much of a difference for Terrans proxying.

The idea grew out of me being done with reactors for the rest of the game (or tech labs) and just having a random piece of addon laying around. Or the reactor being part of the wall so I have to kill it so I can put a tech lab there. Salvage would make more sense than killing it or having it sit in my base unsed for the rest of the game.

DemolitionSquid
05-14-2012, 07:27 PM
I don't think the amount saved with the salvage will make that much of a difference for Terrans proxying.

The idea grew out of me being done with reactors for the rest of the game (or tech labs) and just having a random piece of addon laying around. Or the reactor being part of the wall so I have to kill it so I can put a tech lab there. Salvage would make more sense than killing it or having it sit in my base unsed for the rest of the game.

Early game, every mineral matters, and even more-so gas. Every resource you save through salvage makes getting that next SCV or piece of tech or expansion faster. The most important time to effectively use salvage, as proven with Bunkers, is early game - which is when you proxy.

Pylons are vital structures to Protoss simply because of supply, they can't play the game without them. While Zerg can't even really proxy, they're still vulnerable. Every Overlord killed at Lair tech is once again supply, and every Creep Tumor means 4 less Zerg Larva, which are a precious resource to Zerg.
Terran Add-ons, however, pale in significance. You can -quite literally- win a game as Terran with only 1 Tech Lab the entire game to upgrade your units, and no Reactors. If the Protoss have to lose their Pylons, and the Zerg have to lose their Creep Tumors, it seems fair Terran at least lose their add-ons.

Yeah, its a pain having to kill your Add-on to rewall. But that's your own fault for walling win with the Add-on in the first place. As I said yesterday, Terran can already salvage bunkers, lower depots, and lift their main structures. Protoss and Zerg don't have any way to fix a bad base lay out at all. Terran are bloody well off enough.

Rake
05-15-2012, 01:29 AM
Terran are bloody well off enough.


I agree. For the other two races, if they try and do early pressure and fail they are generally significantly far behind in the game. Terran can pressure every time and still be fine even if they are completely shut down. Salvageable addons would just make things worse.