PDA

View Full Version : Dev update: HotS Multiplayer



Todie
04-11-2012, 12:21 PM
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4833874/Developer_Update_Heart_of_the_Swarm_Multiplayer-4_11_2012#blog


We are currently working nonstop on StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm (and Blizzard DOTA) and hope to be able to get Heart of the Swarm out to the public to see sometime in the near future. While we believe we have some great things lined up for the single-player campaign, I wanted to take some time to give you an update on the recent changes and what cool things we have in store for multiplayer.

Terrans
Terrans have undergone significant changes since we talked about them at BlizzCon. We have not kept the shredder, and even the warhound is in contention. The shredder was very confusing for players as well as being something that was easily used to kill a large number of workers with little to no warning. It was rarely used for its intended role of map control. The warhound still feels a little too much like a small thor, which is just not new enough to give terran players new strategies. We are still experimenting with a wide range of units, particularly from the factory, which we think is a little light on options. We have had a great deal of trouble with the terrans largely because they are such a flexible and effective race in StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty. We want to provide terran players with new strategies, however, so we will continue to work on them.
If we keep the Thor, we are currently experimenting with an anti-air spider mine that would give the terrans a way to get some factory-built anti-air into small places that a Thor has trouble reaching (like near your minerals). Whether this is meaningful, considering terrans have marines, is still in question. We are also experimenting with an extremely long-ranged terran missile launcher that can be used to break siege tank lines to make terran-vs.-terran factory-based games more dynamic.

Protoss
Protoss have gone through some changes since BlizzCon as well. The oracle is still in and functioning as a protoss raider (as intended) that can give the protoss some reach in the mid-game to disrupt enemy plans. The replicant has been cut. He was causing enemy players to not build certain unit types and was actually removing diversity from the game instead of adding diversity.
The tempest was a powerful splash anti-air capital ship at BlizzCon. With the addition of the range upgrade on phoenix in Wings of Liberty we no longer feel like a splash anti-air weapon is necessary on the protoss, but we would still like to give the protoss some additional firepower in the air. The tempest is currently a very long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets. This gives the protoss army some real reach to force an engagement on their terms in the end-game.
Were also experimenting with some nexus abilities. One example is a mass recall that allows the protoss to be more aggressive. They can move out onto the map with their slower sentry/zealot force and, if things dont work out, recall the force back to their base if and when things go wrong.

Zerg
Zerg are the most stable and largely unchanged since BlizzCon. The swarm host is still serving well as a zerg siege unit that can burrow and pressure the enemy from a distance (in a very zergy way), but the viper has some slightly different new abilities. In addition to Abduct, the viper also has the ability to blind biological units in an area of effect. Blinded units have their range reduced to 1. This is obviously effective against terran infantry as well as zerg roach and hydra armies. The viper can also regain energy by feeding off of minerals. This locks up the mineral patch and prevents it from being harvested, so you want to use this ability away from your base.
We have decided to keep the overseer and make the viper a pure caster. We will be taking a look at the overseer to see what we can do to make his abilities more interesting.

We are also trying some additional abilities on the nydus network to allow you to spawn different types of nydus worms. The most interesting worms have been a worm that can spew creep across several screens to create a zerg assault highway, as well as a worm that attacks only enemy buildings, meant to be used as a ground-based zerg base raider.
We have some more work to do before were ready to begin beta testing Heart of the Swarm. We know that everybody wants a date for when they can play, and we know how important it is to get this out in front of the community as soon as possible. Were working on it.


They dropped the replicator and the shredder, they're talking about air-spidermines and different types of nyduses.

the tempest is also dropped or revamped into very long ranged air to air and air to ground - presumably no splash, with no other specifications. If this unit doesnt have some very interesting details toit, it seems extremely bland.

other than the idea of new types of nydus worms im not too excited by this. Its great to get some info on whats been up, but it seems they havnt made much progress other than realizing some of their early ideas were kind of silly.

RamiZ
04-11-2012, 01:13 PM
We will see how this will turn out in the end. I like that they have kept the Overseer and that they didn't change much about the Zerg from Blizzcon. Nydus worm change is also good and original change imo, and as Zerg player, I am looking forward to that.

Replicant and Shredder have been cut. I think it is ok, though I actually liked the Shredder but it was obviously overpowered and didn't work as they expected. Seems like that they really don't know what to do with Terran race, and I am a bit disappointed with that. And really can't see the point of the new Tempest. Protoss didn't need new Air Siege Unit, if they wanted that, they would just use the Carrier, and Protoss needed something that would protect them from mass Mutas because Phoenixes aren't that good with that even with the upgrade cause it comes into fight way too late. I thought they want to make units that doesn't go along with Ball of Death, instead they gave the Protoss just that, a unit which should be used only with Ball of Death.

Extremely long Missile Launcher? This is not C&C...

I think that Blizzard will make a good game, but I am not happy with this as I was happy with the new units at Blizzcon.

The_Blade
04-11-2012, 03:02 PM
Extremely long Missile Launcher? This is not C&C...

My thoughts exactly ^^. I believe Dustin Browder has a mental block, because he has worked with human factions before. I enjoy Siege Tank games because they feel "Terran". When you are in this position, either you get air superiority or start harassing your opponent's economy. Nukes work great at the role of killing or forcing your opponent to move his tanks. If they add this super artillery mechanic into the game we will se games where a terran just fortifies close to the enemy base and starts shooting the buildings down lol.

DemolitionSquid
04-11-2012, 03:14 PM
Well well, what have we here?

Shredder Gone: Amen. Blizzard, please, for the love of Satan, realize how much potential the Bunker already has for area denial though upgrades. How the hell are Siege Bunkers and Flame Turret Bunkers not in the game yet? Even Warcraft 3 had Orc bunkers with spikes poking out of them to punish melee attackers.

Warhound: Blizzard is looking for a Factory AA unit. Why aren't they using the Cobra/Diamondback? Essentially just remodel the Warhound. Cobra hovers, and you can sleek out the model for its rail guns so it'll have great pathing. Give it the GtA AoE attack, and the GtG bonus versus armored, and literally every single problem they have goes caput. Anti-light AA and Siege Tank line breaking power in a micro-able form though the wonders of rail guns. Holy shit.

Air Mines: Now this I actually approve of, its something simple and new, but its an ability that clearly belongs on the Raven.

Fire Zee Missiles: No goddammit, no! Terran already have long range missiles, they're called NUKULAR FUCKING BOMBS. Work on ways to make Nukes more viable instead of wasting time stealing from C&C. I understand if you're afraid of giving Ghosts their Ocular Implants upgrade back because of the Ghost Snipe/High Templar Feedback dance, but there's got to be a better way than making something spammable with even longer range than the bloody Tank.

Oracle: If its not built from the Robotics Facility then I'll be disappointed, but I can understand why its Starport. Protoss NEED to learn to use their Warp Prisms better for harrassment. I support the Oracle, good job. Still not sold on the Mineral blocking Force Fields cause its unneeded though. If you want to disrupt enemy economy, just kill his workers or worker production. Stop making it so goddamn complicated.

Replicant: Good riddance. I was intially excited about this thing, but after much though I realized the last thing Protoss needed was to go back to saying "we suck so bad, we have to use the other races units to win." The Dark Archons let the Infestors do that shit now.

Tempest: The key to this units success is in the name, not by making it the goddamn Carrier you were trying to replace! Let it unleash a fury. Seriously, make it shoot Psionic Storms as its normal attack. Give it some other abilities, and give Protoss the capital ship caster they deserve. Merge the Carrier's power and Mothership's energy to create something badass.

Nexus Recall: Cutting out the Mothership Middleman for Recall is something that should have happened long long ago. Getting the army where it's going should be the Warp Prism's job. Bravo.

Swarm Host: Perfect. Keep it. Its simple, its Zergy, its glorious.

Viper: Give it Abduct, Detection, and "Dark Swarm." Mineral Siphon is dumb. I have no idea where Blizzard's obsession with mineral abuse came from. Its completely unnecessary.

Overseer: Get rid of it, it has NO purpose now.

Nydus Breeds: I'm fine with this as long as its not arbitrary, but seriously, they're making different types of Nydus Worms instead of different types of Creep Tumors? Blizzard is so focused on creating new things, they're forgetting to improve the things they already have. Creep Tumors have as much upgrade potential as Bunkers.

RamiZ
04-11-2012, 03:49 PM
Nydus Breeds: I'm fine with this as long as its not arbitrary, but seriously, they're making different types of Nydus Worms instead of different types of Creep Tumors? Blizzard is so focused on creating new things, they're forgetting to improve the things they already have. Creep Tumors have as much upgrade potential as Bunkers.
I think that is because Creep tumors are already used in every game, that is the main way of creating creep, good macro mechanic, but Nydus is seeing little to no use, and that is why they are changing the Nydus, at least in my eyes it looks like that.

They want to give new abilities to the Overseer, isn't that a good thing? And I am pretty sure that they are keeping the Overseer for balance reasons. High level players were already discussing how you won't be able to rush 3 bases with Zerg ever, because fast DTs or Banshees would deny it because you don't have anything cheap for detection. Viper costs 100/200 and unit that they gave detection to could be easily sniped.

Caliban113
04-11-2012, 06:47 PM
Put this in the HotS discussion, but didn't realize this was here. Gonna paste my 2 cents... :)

-----

Terran -

Warhound: Hmmm - actually thought this would have no trouble making it in

Anti air, 'spider mine': HA! - submitted this as a unit/ability idea back on the old forums. Pretty much just stationary, robot 'Scourge' (Was it a contest??) Still think it's an interesting idea. However, now that I've seen the game beyond the limited theorycrafting that originally spawned this idea, I'm wondering if it may be a bit tough on Zerg base raiding options. (?) We'll see, I guess.


Protoss -


Replicant: Originally held off on an opinion; if used as intended (which will never happen with any unit from here to eternity.) it could have been an interesting mechanic.

Tempest: Hmmm...."The tempest is currently a very long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets." - Sounds eerily familiar somehow...


Zerg -

Swarm Host: Single best unit they have come up with for HotS. Very excited to see it's working out.

Viper: - While I do like the 'siphon minerals' notion, it seems like every time they try to work out these types of, 'replenish energy' mechanics, it always ends up back on the shelf. Minor point, but hope they do something with the, "abduct' animation - really silly looking right now.

Nydus options: Love this idea. Interested to see if its 'all of the above' or an 'A, B or C' choice type add-on.

Overseer: Im assuming the, 'grant detection' ability on the Viper is gone? While I thought it was a little too good, (detection on banelings that can move while burrowed?) I feel a backtrack to the Overseer is really not the way to go.

..

electricmole
04-11-2012, 09:22 PM
just wondering what happened to the battle hellion. Is it still in? I like the unit.

Caliban113
04-11-2012, 10:29 PM
Gonna assume that anything not mentioned is, 'safe'

Also want to mention that I've been calling the fate of the Shredder nearly since the git-go. :)

.

DemolitionSquid
04-12-2012, 02:19 AM
I think that is because Creep tumors are already used in every game, that is the main way of creating creep, good macro mechanic, but Nydus is seeing little to no use, and that is why they are changing the Nydus, at least in my eyes it looks like that.

They want to give new abilities to the Overseer, isn't that a good thing? And I am pretty sure that they are keeping the Overseer for balance reasons. High level players were already discussing how you won't be able to rush 3 bases with Zerg ever, because fast DTs or Banshees would deny it because you don't have anything cheap for detection. Viper costs 100/200 and unit that they gave detection to could be easily sniped.

The detection thing is a non-issue, and I just explained how. Creep Tumor upgrades. In WoL Beta, they had a creep tumor called a Shrieker, that emitted a noise when enemies got too close. It was removed because it was annoying. But I feel the idea was sound. Give Creep Tumors the option to become a Spotter - basically a short-ranged, cloaked eye in the creep that detects. The trade off is that Tumor can no longer spawn new ones. It gives the Zerg more options for Queen energy use and solves the early detection issue without bloating the unit pool, and because they can't attack they can come into play cheaper and earlier than Spore Crawlers. I understand your issue is getting detection to your third as its morphing and there's no creep there yet, but these Spotters might encourage increased used of creep-highways to the third and Overlord creep drop at the third to get the Spotters and Crawlers there faster. As long as the Viper has detection too, there should be no excuse for a Zerg not to have some form of detection, either mobile or static.


Tempest: Hmmm...."The tempest is currently a very long-ranged aerial siege weapon that can strike both air and ground targets." - Sounds eerily familiar somehow...

Exactly. This is ridiculous. Here's my solution.

Make the Tempest shoot Psionic Storms. Give it a "weather machine" vibe. Lots of lightning crackling over its crystalline hull. With a long cooldown and smaller AoE than the Templar's storm, it can give players the ability to micro its storm targets, and the storm will last several seconds so enemies can micro to avoid it and reduce their damage taken. It will give the unit a real sense of power and really make it unique from the Carrier, Battle Cruiser, and Brood Lord. Obviously the storm would have to effect buildings, so as long as the DoT of the storm matched around the DoT of a BC firing at a building it should be balanced just fine. Then what you can do, is give it energy and abilities that compliment its lightning-based play. Give it the Science Vessel's Defensive Matrix in the form of a Static Barrier. Let it charge up and unleash a giant storm. There's so much possibility.

Aldrius
04-12-2012, 04:15 AM
Shredder: Fine, sounded kinda ridiculous.

New ideas: Ugh. We're going through this again. The period of them using ideas that pretty much just flat out don't work.

I like the aerial spider-mine, though. Very terran-y, very cool. I don't really see what purpose the Thor serves at this point... never really liked it.

Pretty sad to see the Replicant go, that sounded like a cool unit. And I actually think having players be hesitant to use certain powerful units sounds like a good strategic element, but I can understand why Blizzard wouldn't want that.

Oracle sounds neat, I guess. Hard to say. It sounds pretty limited.

Tempest... eh? I didn't really love the sound of it at Blizzcon and I still don't, really. I agree that a combined Mothership/Capital Ship kinda thing would be great. Seriously, the Mothership's really cool and good. Recall is useless, and it's too fat and bloated for it's own good, but there's a good unit in there if they tried to find it.

Swarm Host is fantastically cool.

Overseer being back is fine with me, as long as they can maybe come up with one more spell it can use (preferably one that helps provide vision somehow). But even then, I don't really mind. I sort of like how it's a more specialized Overlord in a way.

Viper is sounding cool, but mineral siphoning sounds... dumb. I don't really mind it, but I think consume is a more elegant solution to the same problem. Of course then it really is just a flying Defiler, but oh well. As for the detection spell, it sounded kinda sloppy and hard to use, so I'm not sorry to see that go.

Nydus Worm thing sounds like one of those cool but totally unworkable ideas they're going to wind up cutting. I sort of agree with Squid in that upgradable Creep Tumours probably make more sense, and Nydus worms could just be balanced better. (Though I've never really seen the problem, building Nydus is a large investment, but it almost always pays off in a really big way.)

TheEconomist
04-12-2012, 01:14 PM
@DSquid:

It will give the unit a real sense of power and really make it unique from the Carrier, Battle Cruiser, and Brood Lord.

By making it a flying Templar?

I am 99% sure that, if you hadn't come up with this idea and Blizzard had implemented it, you would've started a shit-storm (pun intended) about Blizzard's lack of creativity.

sandwich_bird
04-12-2012, 01:14 PM
I agree with all the changes they want to make. I hope they can find something interesting for Terran too though. Battle hellions and warhounds(assuming that they stay in) are really ''meh''... Really nothing interesting to them and the flying spidermines are pretty much useless considering that their only real use would be to counter muta harass... which btw can already be easily countered by a couple of turrets + stiming marines. Maybe you could catch a colossus off-guard or something but that's also an unlikely case considering that by the time you have a colo out, you also have observers and can probably take out those mines easily. If they're gonna put mines back, put freaking regular spidermines back. Then again, this is something I'd like to avoid considering how APM extensives spidermines based strategy were in BW.

What Terran needs(if they remove Thor) is a new massive unit that can remove Force fields. I'd also like a new aoe air unit but... all they really need to do is buff the freaking raven so that hsm becomes more viable. Science vessel >>>>>>>> raven.

DemolitionSquid
04-12-2012, 01:52 PM
@DSquid:

By making it a flying Templar?

I am 99% sure that, if you hadn't come up with this idea and Blizzard had implemented it, you would've started a shit-storm (pun intended) about Blizzard's lack of creativity.

Oh TF, you know me so well.

I must ask of you two questions. One, do you think my idea is bad regardless, and two, do you acctually have any imput as to what would be better?

Saying the Tempest shouldn't shoot Storms because the Templar does is silly. If something works, you keep it. If Storm actually functioned better on the Tempest than the Templar, I'd have no problem removing it from the Templar, or scrapping the Templar completely. Blizzard has put arbitrary restrictions on themselves, forcing themselves to keep units or abilities that might not need to be there, or may need to be significantly altered. They've chosen nostalgia over gameplay in some places and it's hurting them.

TheEconomist
04-12-2012, 02:39 PM
If something works, you keep it.

That isn't the point.

If that was Blizzard's idea and not yours, you would have immediately gone on a rant the moment you heard.

That's all I meant to say. Next topic.

Alar
04-12-2012, 08:30 PM
Rather than shooting storms, why not give it a bouncing attack? I think only the Mutalisk has one, if I recall. It fires out bolts of electricity/psionic energy that zap around like chain lightning, perhaps? That could be an upgrade, if they want. I agree that it needs SOMETHING, otherwise it just feels like an AtA/AtG Guardian/Brood Lord.

PsiWarp
04-12-2012, 09:58 PM
Kinda knew the Replicant would be cut. It was a cool-looking techno-wisp but also a dirty copycat :>

Idea on Tempest attack: an anti-air black hole that draws non-massive units in, and grind them with high damage per second. Take out poorly-microed Muta flocks in seconds!

Returning the Overseer, maybe the Changeling too?

DemolitionSquid
04-13-2012, 03:05 AM
I am comfortable with both Alar and Psiwarp's Tempest suggestions.

Perhaps instead of shooting Psionic Storms, the Tempest emits a constant storm around it dealing AoE damage - basically a very expensive flying Shredder. It would actively have to put itself over the enemy and in harms way to deal damage, like when the Mothership had Planet Cracker. Being so high tech it couldn't be abused like the Shredder apparently was for worker killing, but it would still retain that area denial Blizzard is looking for. By being a flying unit it would also encourage Zerg into using more Hydras and Corruptors in their play to kill it effectively.

I recall I suggested Protoss gain a unit with what I called "Inverse Glaive Wyrm" mechanics. Every bounce would increase in damage, so you'd want to target something near the enemy you actually wanted to deal the most damage to. By the power of MICRO!

Todie
04-13-2012, 09:59 AM
[...]the flying spidermines are pretty much useless considering that their only real use would be to counter muta harass... which btw can already be easily countered by a couple of turrets + stiming marines. Maybe you could catch a colossus off-guard or something but that's also an unlikely case considering that by the time you have a colo out, you also have observers and can probably take out those mines easily. If they're gonna put mines back, put freaking regular spidermines back. Then again, this is something I'd like to avoid considering how APM extensives spidermines based strategy were in BW. Flying mines are about areal denial and splash. i think it oucld be pwoerufl vs drops of call kinds witch mgiht be good. also against the new protoss oracle and amybe the zerg viper depending on how these unts are used and how the mines are deployed.



What Terran needs(if they remove Thor) is a new massive unit that can remove Force fields. Good point we need to keep this in mind.


I'd also like a new aoe air unit but... all they really need to do is buff the freaking raven so that hsm becomes more viable. Science vessel >>>>>>>> raven. i used to agree, but ive come to realzie that the raven is so damn versatile witht he mobility of being a flying unit and having all its abilities upgradable at the eng-bay.. The seeker missile is not impactful in itself, but considering the might of the terran army even without that, and how a few full energy ravens dramatically increase the utility of a formation of vikings that tries to dominate the sky, its hard to further buff the raven or seeker missile without breaking it.


Rather than shooting storms, why not give it a bouncing attack? I think only the Mutalisk has one, if I recall. It fires out bolts of electricity/psionic energy that zap around like chain lightning, perhaps? That could be an upgrade, if they want. I agree that it needs SOMETHING, otherwise it just feels like an AtA/AtG Guardian/Brood Lord. There seems to be an agreement that his tempest or whatever the nw Protoss air unit ends up being called, needs to have an interesting mode of attack.

a bouncing attack is itneresting, but then it needs to be set apart clearly from how the mutalisks glave-worm works. For example, the tempest could attack two targets at once with equal damage. making it weaker if ever faced off against only one enemy (or several enemies with significant space in between them) ... a related alternative is o allow it to attack one air target and one ground target at a time - making it weakerwhenver faced with only one.


Kinda knew the Replicant would be cut. It was a cool-looking techno-wisp but also a dirty copycat :>

Idea on Tempest attack: an anti-air black hole that draws non-massive units in, and grind them with high damage per second. Take out poorly-microed Muta flocks in seconds!

Returning the Overseer, maybe the Changeling too? This is a cool idea, especialyl considering motehrship and vortex are likely gone. However, elts keep in mind what blizzard said:


with the addition of the range upgrade on phoenix in Wings of Liberty we no longer feel like a splash anti-air weapon is necessary on the protoss, but we would still like to give the protoss some additional firepower in the air.

in light of this i would love a unit with an attack that had a short-term effect on the nearby targets movement and locality, as you suggest; let the attack draw the enemies in towards the centre of the attack with some force, similar to what vortex did but less forceful and without any actual hole to disappear into at the centre. This would add another feature of obstructing movement - including aireal movement and also combine well with both splash damage and general kiting tactics. Giving this unit actual splash damage on top of draging enemies into the splash area however, would be too extreme IMO.

DemolitionSquid
04-13-2012, 11:02 AM
So can we all agree on the Tempest shooting Vortexes then? AoE damage in a pulling field? I can totally work with that.

Todie
04-13-2012, 11:05 AM
again, i think AoE damage AND pullingfield in the same unit is over the top. The pullingfield alone will greatly amplify splash from storm/colossi/archon

DemolitionSquid
04-13-2012, 11:10 AM
again, i think AoE damage AND pullingfield in the same unit is over the top. The pullingfield alone will greatly amplify splash from storm/colossi/archon

Well we can't have the Tempest deal no damage... can we? Its a freakin capital ship we're designing here.

TheEconomist
04-13-2012, 12:20 PM
Ahhhh, the great one's master plan is beginning to unfold. He's spamming asinine ideas so he can bitch at Blizzard when they consider them :D

Guess normal trolling is boring these days. I can't wait to see how this one turns out.

DemolitionSquid
04-13-2012, 12:32 PM
I'm not trolling. I actually think we're getting somewhere with this. If we scrap the idea of a traditional capital ship, relegating that task more to the Void Ray, we can instead focus on making the Tempest into something really new. Shooting vortex's as its normal attack to disrupt enemy movement is certainly pushing a few limits, that frankly needed to be pushed.

TheEconomist
04-13-2012, 01:55 PM
http://www.mustangevolution.com/forum/attachments/10670d1127177622-put-down-the-crack-pipe.jpg

DemolitionSquid
04-13-2012, 02:16 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj1xqfcFfs1qbcu5qo1_400.jpg

TheEconomist
04-13-2012, 03:47 PM
Having 'Aliens' and 'Awful things' in the same image is a Class 5 felony. Come quietly or there will be trouble.

http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/meh.ro5390.jpg

Alex06
04-13-2012, 06:34 PM
I'm not trolling. I actually think we're getting somewhere with this. If we scrap the idea of a traditional capital ship, relegating that task more to the Void Ray, we can instead focus on making the Tempest into something really new. Shooting vortex's as its normal attack to disrupt enemy movement is certainly pushing a few limits, that frankly needed to be pushed.
As crazy as it sounds, I approve Squid's ideas. Quite frankly, I feel the same on several issues.

kazu0201
04-14-2012, 05:07 AM
wouldn't creating a vortex thing that sucks units in just be archon toilet 2.0?
i think bringing back the idea of a slow-time field would be awesome
like give it a huge aoe that slows all non-massive biological and/or aerial units in the area

DemolitionSquid
04-14-2012, 06:20 AM
wouldn't creating a vortex thing that sucks units in just be archon toilet 2.0?
i think bringing back the idea of a slow-time field would be awesome
like give it a huge aoe that slows all non-massive biological and/or aerial units in the area

Depending on the size/power/targeting there's a lot of flexibility with both Vortex and Time Warp mechanics. The ultimate goal here is to create a unit that does 3 things.

1. Has a different mechanic and style to its play/use than the Carrier, Mothership, Battlecruiser, or Brood Lord.

2. Feels powerful but not broken, and is a viable option for building regularly in competitive play.

3. Supplements the Protoss army to fill in gaps in their play, such as needing a better way to deal with Mutalisks.

TheProgramer
04-14-2012, 06:32 AM
Also want to mention that I've been calling the fate of the Shredder nearly since the git-go. :)

You and everyone else buddy, don't get to smug.

TheEconomist
04-14-2012, 07:23 AM
3. Supplements the Protoss army to fill in gaps in their play, such as needing a better way to deal with Mutalisks.

There was supposed to be a new ship for just this very purpose. Did they get rid of it?



You and everyone else buddy, don't get to smug.

Seriously, LOL :D

DemolitionSquid
04-14-2012, 08:20 AM
There was supposed to be a new ship for just this very purpose. Did they get rid of it?

Are you referring to the Phoenix?

We were discussing how to improve the Tempest, which was Blizzard's solution but according to this update they have essentially converted into a "Carrier without Interceptors." They're still trying to find a better AA option.

TheEconomist
04-14-2012, 10:03 AM
they have essentially converted into a "Carrier without Interceptors." They're still trying to find a better AA option.

I see. I haven't read the update.

Frankly, these days, I have block-o-text phobia from all 10-K (financial statements) I've been reading. My mistake.

Todie
04-14-2012, 11:21 AM
Well we can't have the Tempest deal no damage... can we? Its a freakin capital ship we're designing here.

ok let me be fucking clear:

i purpose a one-target attack that draws units arouind the target closer to it, this messing up their formations and movments and creating oportunities to do wonderous things with HT/sentry/archon/colossi

this can work with long range also, compared to if it was a splash attack witch is both a) overlaping with colossi longrange splash and b) necessitating the attacks dps per cast vs single targets being quite weak, resulting in poor utility as an areal siege apparatus - when targeting defensive structures for example.

DemolitionSquid
04-14-2012, 11:29 AM
ok let me be fucking clear:

Y SO SRS?


i purpose a one-target attack that draws units arouind the target closer to it, this messing up their formations and movments and creating oportunities to do wonderous things with HT/sentry/archon/colossi

this can work with long range also, compared to if it was a splash attack witch is both a) overlaping with colossi longrange splash and b) necessitating the attacks dps per cast vs single targets being quite weak, resulting in poor utility as an areal siege apparatus - when targeting defensive structures for example.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable giving this unit a weak single target attack. We're trying to make the unit feel as powerful as its tech placement would suggest. The only way I could accept it is if it had a very fast rate of fire, but then it would be planting Vortexes so fast the enemy would have no real way to micro away. And we all know how annoying it is to face Marauder Concussive shot already.

Todie
04-14-2012, 11:49 AM
I'm not sure I'm comfortable giving this unit a weak single target attack.

with a relativistic mindset, its the oposite: if you make the attack splash, you ahve to reduce its dps. lest its broken.

still i geuss i see your point.

there might be a happy middleground. secondary splash perhaps; some 10% of the dps dealt as splash. I can think of some intricate/funky alternatives too but they're too far fetched anyway.

my point stands, a vortex-attack mechanic combined with a dedicated splash attack would synergize so well that it would make the unit too extreme and difficult to balance.

DemolitionSquid
04-14-2012, 11:54 AM
with a relativistic mindset, its the oposite: if you make the attack splash, you ahve to reduce its dps. lest its broken.

still i geuss i see your point.

there might be a happy middleground. secondary splash perhaps; some 10% of the dps dealt as splash. I can think of some intricate/funky alternatives too but they're too far fetched anyway.

my point stands, a vortex-attack mechanic combined with a dedicated splash attack would synergize so well that it would make the unit too extreme and difficult to balance.

I'm gonna have to mull all this over for awhile.

Alex06
04-14-2012, 03:59 PM
Hmmm, I was thinking, what if the Tempest instead had a melee attack? I could imagine that interior crescent part light up and as it hits a swarm of mutalisk, damage is done to them.

RamiZ
04-14-2012, 05:12 PM
Hmmm, I was thinking, what if the Tempest instead had a melee attack? I could imagine that interior crescent part light up and as it hits a swarm of mutalisk, damage is done to them.
And how would it hit ground units? I think it wouldn't work.

mr. peasant
04-14-2012, 06:25 PM
Re: The Tempest

Why not just keep the current basic, long range attack and instead supplement it with a energy/cooldown-based ability? One thing that I think would work well for Protoss transitioning away from the Mothership's Archon toilet would be if the Tempest could create a 'capture field' that prevents enemy air units trapped inside from leaving and possibly enemy air units outside from entering. Not sure about the computer processing power needed for something like that but in terms of strategy, its utility would be as follows:

1. Protect bases from fly-by raids by air units.
2. Create relatively safer landing zones for units to warp-in.
3. When used singly to trap enemy flyers, forces the opponent to engage the player rather than fly away.
4. Split enemy groups up.
5. When used by multiple units at once, effectively immobilise enemy flyers (especially stacks) into small areas that can be hit by AoE.


Re: The Shredder

I think it can be made to work if it was mixed with the 'anti-air spider mine' idea mentioned. Essentially, limit its effect to only hit air units and have it spend energy whilst active. Its function would then be to counter aerial raids and drops. And to reduce the risk of abuse (e.g. by muta-proofing one's base), it could be made such that it damages both, enemy and friendly air units.

TheEconomist
04-14-2012, 09:21 PM
An air melee unit. Now I KNOW some good shit is being passed around. Where ya'll at?

Quirel
04-15-2012, 01:00 AM
Hmmm, I was thinking, what if the Tempest instead had a melee attack? I could imagine that interior crescent part light up and as it hits a swarm of mutalisk, damage is done to them.
Combined with Squiddie's draw-in mechanic, that would be awesome. Flying vacuum cleaner.

DemolitionSquid
04-15-2012, 03:32 AM
And you guys accuse me of trolling?

Protoss HAD a melee air unit in WoL Beta. It was the ORIGINAL Tempest. It fired melee hira-shuriken interceptors. And nigh all of you, especially Tychus, did nothing but shit on the idea.

Screw you hypocrites.

Todie
04-15-2012, 05:25 AM
technically shurikens were melee, not tempest. and shurikens were like interceptors ofcourse; not standard standalone units.


... no. i dont think any sort of real melle air unit would work in sc2 considrering what is in it now.


Re: The Tempest

Why not just keep the current basic, long range attack and instead supplement it with a energy/cooldown-based ability? One thing that I think would work well for Protoss transitioning away from the Mothership's Archon toilet would be if the Tempest could create a 'capture field' that prevents enemy air units trapped inside from leaving and possibly enemy air units outside from entering. Not sure about the computer processing power needed for something like that but in terms of strategy, its utility would be as follows:

1. Protect bases from fly-by raids by air units.
2. Create relatively safer landing zones for units to warp-in.
3. When used singly to trap enemy flyers, forces the opponent to engage the player rather than fly away.
4. Split enemy groups up.
5. When used by multiple units at once, effectively immobilise enemy flyers (especially stacks) into small areas that can be hit by AoE.


I like this idea.

mythology
04-15-2012, 03:12 PM
no 1 else sees what the tempest has become in this current version?

it's said to have very long range which makes me think siege range. if its ground and air attack are the same, if the tempest does good damage, and if both have the same very long range then were looking at a protoss sc1 guardian unit that can attack air units as well.

slap on top that it may also have the hp and shielding of a carrier or mothership and consider a long range damaging unit's accumulative effect when massed that has always being the superior force in starcraft 1.

i'm not saying pro players would allow their enemies to mass units so high up the tech tree but how exactly would you counter such a protoss force that would always get the first dozen hits in every situation?

the only reasonable thing i can think of from heart of the swarm is the vipers abduct and the bc's boost upgrade or w/e it's called if that hasn't been cut.

Jconant
04-15-2012, 04:38 PM
Considering that its the Carrier which is being replaced, the Tempest should probably provide a similar role as siege unit, but however they tinker with it....it ought to serve as an alternative tech choice to the colossus or high templar.

What can the tempest do that will make it stand out from spellstorms and aoe beams.

Gradius
04-15-2012, 04:46 PM
Considering that its the Carrier which is being replaced, the Tempest should probably provide a similar role as siege unit, but however they tinker with it....it ought to serve as an alternative tech choice to the colossus or high templar.

What can the tempest do that will make it stand out from spellstorms and aoe beams.
How about the brilliant idea of shooting psi storms?

Oh wait...

Jconant
04-15-2012, 10:35 PM
Lol....

if the tempest does become some sort of "siege" caster, what becomes of the high templar?

I think it should be dumped, but if it could be turned into something else and make archons more of a feasible tech choice- templar could throw around utility/defense spells and then morph into an offensive unit when it runs out of juice...instead of being a shade of its former glory.

RODTHEGOD
04-16-2012, 03:18 AM
Here's an idea;

I call it the Crusader

The theme is a sort of weather inflictor
It's a fairly large unit that has a lightning bolt attack that behaves in a similar fashion to the lurkers attack.
This unit cannot attack buildings
It also has the ability to be modified by inserting a High or Dark templar into it.
Inserting a high templar allows it to cast smaller psionic storms at a reduced price.
Inserting a Dark Templar allows it to fly around and fire its lightning bolts cloaked.

Caliban113
04-16-2012, 12:25 PM
You and everyone else buddy, don't get to smug.

HA! - Nope, all mee......and defin'ly not everyone else...there was many a bunched panty as I recall. :)

Rake
04-16-2012, 12:34 PM
Here's an idea;

I call it the Crusader

The theme is a sort of weather inflictor
It's a fairly large unit that has a lightning bolt attack that behaves in a similar fashion to the lurkers attack.
This unit cannot attack buildings
It also has the ability to be modified by inserting a High or Dark templar into it.
Inserting a high templar allows it to cast smaller psionic storms at a reduced price.
Inserting a Dark Templar allows it to fly around and fire its lightning bolts cloaked.

Lol. Something like that would be awesome. What if the dark templar let it attack buildings?

Alar
04-19-2012, 06:48 AM
I'd really wish they would just work on the Shredder more and give it back to us, and maybe the Replicator too. I was most looking forward to them... and the Tempest changes are also disappointing.

mikill
04-21-2012, 12:32 AM
We are also experimenting with an extremely long-ranged terran missile launcher that can be used to break siege tank lines to make terran-vs.-terran factory-based games more dynamic


Yes! Its Total Annihilation. Yes blizzard make games fun. Missile sounds cool and interesting for TvT. I hate when it comes down to who gets siege tanks before the other.

For the replicant, I understand completely why you wanted to remove it.

Nydus worms are a cool idea. Would like to see them in HotS.

DemolitionSquid
04-21-2012, 09:15 AM
Yes! Its Total Annihilation. Yes blizzard make games fun. Missile sounds cool and interesting for TvT. I hate when it comes down to who gets siege tanks before the other.

If there's anyone who knows how to steal from other devs, its Blizzard.

Seriously though, how the hell can you justify advocating an offensive unit or ability with even longer range than the bloody tank?

Twilice
04-21-2012, 09:21 AM
ou give every race a building that only counters that extremly long range missile <.<

DemolitionSquid
04-21-2012, 09:28 AM
ou give every race a building that only counters that extremly long range missile <.<

Because StarCraft is all about homogenous races and single-use units. Derp.

TheEconomist
04-21-2012, 09:39 AM
Because StarCraft is all about homogenous races and single-use units. Derp.

I've never seen such a horrible misinterpretation of what made StarCraft II great. StarCraft II has always been about making the races as different as possible so that none of them feel the same when you play them. For example, Zerg get ass-raped by AoE no matter how well you macro or micro and hold off those early harasses. Protoss are about having superior micro and macro but still losing to infantry balls. Terran are all about A-moving to instawin victory.

You, sir, are bronze trash.

DemolitionSquid
04-21-2012, 10:36 AM
I've never seen such a horrible misinterpretation of what made StarCraft II great. StarCraft II has always been about making the races as different as possible so that none of them feel the same when you play them. For example, Zerg get ass-raped by AoE no matter how well you macro or micro and hold off those early harasses. Protoss are about having superior micro and macro but still losing to infantry balls. Terran are all about A-moving to instawin victory.

You, sir, are bronze trash.

The "Derp" indicated sarcasm.

TheEconomist
04-21-2012, 11:35 AM
Zerg get ass-raped by AoE no matter how well you macro or micro and hold off those early harasses. Protoss are about having superior micro and macro but still losing to infantry balls. Terran are all about A-moving to instawin victory.

All of this indicated my own sarcasm :D

DemolitionSquid
04-21-2012, 11:36 AM
All of this indicated my own sarcasm :D

Except your sarcasm was true on every count.

TheEconomist
04-21-2012, 11:54 AM
True. Sarcasm was the wrong word but you get what I meant :D

RamiZ
04-21-2012, 05:48 PM
He is true even about you being "the bronze trash"?

Interesting.

DemolitionSquid
04-21-2012, 07:06 PM
He is true even about you being "the bronze trash"?

Interesting.

Basically. My macro is terrible. At least I get free health care though.

TheEconomist
04-21-2012, 09:22 PM
At least I get free health care though.

For now and at what cost? Canada's housing bubble and rising household debt make America's look like a child's blow-bubble, especially at a time when your country's economy can no longer rely on exorbitant commodity prices.

All of America's "bail-out the socialists" money was spent on Europe. Canada will be shit out of luck.

Twilice
04-21-2012, 09:29 PM
I used sarcasm and seemingly you became confused, but maybe I got a feeling you did it just so when I thought you were confused I would post that you were confused. Thus making you win the sarcasm fight. Now I'm not sure what happened.


The "Derp" indicated sarcasm.
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/12594243.jpg

mikill
04-21-2012, 10:27 PM
Seriously though, how the hell can you justify advocating an offensive unit or ability with even longer range than the bloody tank?

<jk>Oh, so you work at Blizzard and know exactly whats its range. The point is just like America, the terrans like nukes and big explosions that cost taxpayers millions of dollars. </jk>

On a serious note we don't the specs of the missle until blizzard releases information on it, so we can't actually say it a bad thing, we don't even have a photo of it.



Basically. My macro is terrible. At least I get free health care though.

Its not even that good, the wait times are terrible and the money is non-existant for medical procedures and prescriptions.

TheEconomist
04-22-2012, 08:04 AM
You mean, just like noob 4v4 allies, America has to go on the offensive to protect its lazy, nothing-but-macroing shit allies?

/half-joking

DemolitionSquid
04-22-2012, 02:15 PM
For now and at what cost? Canada's housing bubble and rising household debt make America's look like a child's blow-bubble, especially at a time when your country's economy can no longer rely on exorbitant commodity prices.

All of America's "bail-out the socialists" money was spent on Europe. Canada will be shit out of luck.

Where are you getting your information? Canada is recovering extremely well from the global crash the US caused, mostly thanks to Alberta oil. Yeah the Keystone fallout stung a bit, but we have great relations with China and they're (literally) dying to get their hands on all our resources. Admittedly our biggest problem is health care right now thanks to my countrymen stupidly voting in the Conservatives and Steven Harper, who are pretty much the Republicans/Bush of our system. Spending money on jet fighters, wtf. At least they're not this new Wild Rose party... those fuckers are crazy.

TheEconomist
04-22-2012, 03:40 PM
Canada is recovering extremely well from the global crash the US caused

Are you actually blaming America for the world's dependence on a single country? Sorry, we aren't going to be able to create growth for you and bail out much longer. Or, perhaps, it is simply that you do no understand that Canada's past and future growth depend entirely on America maintaining the international trade system. Without America, Canada would wither and die.

Either way, no, you're not recovering extremely well. Canada is simply trading pain now for more pain later. Similiar to Japan. Japan seemed to be growing at lightning speeds for a decade past when they actually collapsed by creating massive amounts of debt. They appeared to being doing well. In actuality, the created enough debt to be the 2.5x their current GDP. Instead of growing as fast as they appeared, they collapsed and twenty years later their economy is still half the size that it was in 1989.

A country can always look good if you ignore debt.

And, before you say anything, America has enough in-country and global assets to solve the debt problem in a few years. There is an estimated $339 trillion dollars of taxable assets. The problem is getting these things taxed politically.

----

I get my information from official government economic data.

http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/keygraphs/Fig5_large.jpg
http://vreaa.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/re-inventory-chart4.png?w=500&h=347

Canada's home price-to-income, income-to-debt, and housing sales are all at levels far worse than America at the height of the bubble. Which is typical of Socialist country afraid of pain enough to try to generate growth out of nothing. Canada is dependent upon the selling of resources and construction. Yet, with China entering a Japan-like lost decade, you aren't going to be able to rely on them for much longer. Canada's economy became massively skewed because of China's growth, and it will collapse along with China because of this.

Socialism at its purest.

Sure, China never slowed down because they spent massive amounts of money on construction projects, in terms of growth rate. Too bad that growth came from debt (i.e. not real growth). None of them made economic sense and they're now all bankrupting the country a few short years later. China went from having third-worldly low levels of corporate debt to having European levels in a few short years. Why? Socialist projects designed to avoid painful recessions. Same with Canada. There is a reason that Canada and Australia are by far the most shorted (expected to take a massive nose dive) stocks in the world right now. There also a reason why my short stocks have made a 90% increase since October 2011. I should thank the Canadian/World media for not hammering these problems to death like American media.

DSquid, don't ruin the positive trend we've had.

--Oops, I thought this was the off-topic forum. Not going to take this discussion any further.

Turalyon
04-23-2012, 06:39 AM
Whoah! Methinks we touched a nerve here!

TheEconomist
04-23-2012, 06:47 AM
Nope, don't even have a nerve to touch :D I just thought it was the off-topic forum since I just switched from there so I wrote a large response.

hyde
04-23-2012, 11:33 AM
Either way, no, you're not recovering extremely well.


I would not say extremely well either, but for the most part Canada was not hit as hard from the 2008 crash - but we are not recovering at any insane speeds either.



Canada's home price-to-income, income-to-debt, and housing sales are all at levels far worse than America at the height of the bubble. Which is typical of Socialist country afraid of pain enough to try to generate growth out of nothing. Canada is dependent upon the selling of resources and construction. Yet, with China entering a Japan-like lost decade, you aren't going to be able to rely on them for much longer. Canada's economy became massively skewed because of China's growth, and it will collapse along with China because of this.
Yes you are right about the math and stats, last time I checked in March anyways. Been too busy with exams to catch up on the world. "Generate growth out of nothing" that stings, but it is true in a way. As a raw resource and manufacturing country, it's hard to generate growth when our partners are not buying our stuff. It's also why our Prime Minister is making social visits to China to try and sell our oil to them. I would not say it is because we're a socialist country, it's simply because our main exports are 1) Oil 2) Lumber 3) Coal 4) Rare metals 5) Misc Energy to US (i.e. Hydro) oh and of course drugs for the black market.
It's also hard when a majority of our manufacturing or corporations here ARE American or DEAL with mainly American. Obama's American Jobs act hit us hard.




Socialism at its purest.

You talk as if we're Sweden or something, which we're not. We have a medical system that works with our population. Yes we have higher taxes (only 7-12% more on average), but we have a vastly different culture and society than the Americas. So we have different systems. We're also a much smaller country. I don't know why people love comparing US and Canada, it's like comparing Belgium with France.
But for the record, no I do not like the light-socialism Canada has in regards to the economy. But you work with what you have, we do not have a thriving entrepreneur/knowledge economy here sadly.



Sure, China never slowed down because they spent massive amounts of money on construction projects, in terms of growth rate. Too bad that growth came from debt (i.e. not real growth). None of them made economic sense and they're now all bankrupting the country a few short years later. China went from having third-worldly low levels of corporate debt to having European levels in a few short years. Why? Socialist projects designed to avoid painful recessions.

Very true.



Same with Canada.

No. Unlike China, our government does not force or subsidize construction companies to make giant commercial lots for no reason. I worked for Chevron and Shell Royal Dutch (in Canada), yes we get subsidies from the government. But we're selling oil faster than we can effectively pull it out of the ground (while adhering to standards).

For the rest of the country, as far as I know, there are no insane Chinese-like economic 'injection' plans. There are some stimulus projects for sure, but they are all practical and effective from what I've seen.



There is a reason that Canada and Australia are by far the most shorted (expected to take a massive nose dive) stocks in the world right now. There also a reason why my short stocks have made a 90% increase since October 2011. I should thank the Canadian/World media for not hammering these problems to death like American media.
Can't comment on this, but I wouldn't be surprised. I'd like to see the source on this though. Considering most of the Toronto Exchange is mainly energy and manufacturing, which are not exactly growing, this doesn't surprise me.


Lastly, Canada is projected to become a Japan-like economy/society sadly (stagnated growth and dying population). We're incredibly dependent on immigration, and current trends are not looking good for us. As more of the world develops, we're getting less and less immigration. We're projected to have a near 0 growth population if immigration doesn't improve. Personally, as a dual citizen, I don't mind either country. Both have pros and cons. Quite honestly, we need more people if we ever want to seriously grow. But that's not happening anytime soon, average marriage age in Canada is trending to early 30's.

TheEconomist
04-23-2012, 02:32 PM
*Wall-o-text removed*

I responded to you here, hyde:

http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?p=177334#post177334

Todie
04-26-2012, 12:59 PM
Basically. My macro is terrible. At least I get free health care though.


For now and at what cost? Canada's housing bubble and rising household debt make America's look like a child's blow-bubble, especially at a time when your country's economy can no longer rely on exorbitant commodity prices.

All of America's "bail-out the socialists" money was spent on Europe. Canada will be shit out of luck. [....rabble rabble rabble....]



http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=2101092&t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/2101092/that-escalated-quickly.html)

TheEconomist
04-26-2012, 01:26 PM
'Twas carry over from another topic.

Why all the OT?

Pr0nogo
04-26-2012, 01:59 PM
That whole thing was almost as stupid as this whole thing.

TheEconomist
04-26-2012, 02:50 PM
That whole thing was almost as stupid as this whole thing.

Disappointing.

warrior6
05-01-2012, 12:10 PM
i think the problem is that blizzard is too reluctant to put in units that work exactly like they want it to but they dont put them in because they were in the original. i.e. corsair worked fine as a splash AA unit and had a interesting ability and was fast. the carrier was a good capital ship, the goliath was fine as AA factory unit and was also a decent ground unit by itself.

this is what is holding them back. i would NOT mind seeing these units as the heart of the swarm units (not all but some and maybe spiced up in some way with an ability or something)

their zerg units seem to be really good tho.


and i dont understand this obsession of breaking siege tank lines in TvT its fine the way it is right now. the siege tank should be the staple unit that TvT revolves around. the thor, marauders, 55HP marines, extremely mobile terran rax armies and vikings and battlecruisers and nukes are fine @ this. we dont need a uberrange missile launcher.

phazonjunkie
05-02-2012, 02:09 AM
I have to dissagree. Having a mirror match (or any match) revolve around a single unit/strategy (tank wars in this case) is generally not a good idea in the long run and results in matchups becoming formulaic, predictable, and boring.

Hell, the Thor was originally intended as the answer to siege lines before it got nerfed to hell and back.

mr. peasant
05-02-2012, 04:56 AM
But how does having a missile with an even longer range solve this problem? Odds are this missile launcher unit would simply replace and/or compliment the Siege Tank strategy. The only solution is to create a way for Terrans to break a siege line other than through greater numbers/firepower or something with better range (as they'd simply start using that instead). Instead, it should be things like tweaking it so that Viking landings become more viable or to create something that can negate the Siege Tank's splash damage (e.g. make Warhounds immune to splash damage).

phazonjunkie
05-02-2012, 06:15 AM
For the record, I don't think the long range missile is a good idea either. I think TvT tank wars are a problem, but like Mr. peasant said, replacing a long range siege unit with an even longer ranged one isn't the way solve it. The Vikings are actually part of the problem, since thier exceptionally long range makes sieged up tanks difficult to approach from the air as well.

Caliban113
05-03-2012, 06:42 PM
So....anybody wanna start theorycrafting WC4? :)

DemolitionSquid
05-04-2012, 09:43 AM
So....anybody wanna start theorycrafting WC4? :)

UnicOrcs.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQNsg3Hoay5diluxtiNUHHhDsQ5IkCez 5u5j-H4Zf_j4cdWsm9g

Kimera757
05-04-2012, 04:39 PM
So....anybody wanna start theorycrafting WC4? :)

There will only be two factions, Horde and Alliance (plus NPC factions, which won't appear in the multiplayer).

The game will so more closely resemble Warcraft II and III than WoW.

Yeah, just guessing :)

RamiZ
05-04-2012, 05:42 PM
There will only be two factions, Horde and Alliance (plus NPC factions, which won't appear in the multiplayer).

The game will so more closely resemble Warcraft II and III than WoW.

Yeah, just guessing :)
LOL, if anything, there would be more than 6 factions. :D

Aldrius
05-04-2012, 05:56 PM
I think the Undead faction (and the Night Elves to an extent) are just to rich to cut them. Or make them a part of the Horde/Alliance.

And honestly, I don't really see the point. Except to make it like WoW. Particularly the Undead as of Cataclysm just have SO MANY potential new units. (Like the Val'kyr) That would be so great to see in an RTS setting.


i think the problem is that blizzard is too reluctant to put in units that work exactly like they want it to but they dont put them in because they were in the original. i.e. corsair worked fine as a splash AA unit and had a interesting ability and was fast. the carrier was a good capital ship, the goliath was fine as AA factory unit and was also a decent ground unit by itself.


They had the Carrier in the game. They decided to get rid of it. The Goliath is pretty darn straight-forward and dull.

I'll give you the Corsair, I think, but even then... and I don't think the Corsair's ability really fit it, I think it was sort of like the WC3 batrider, where they had two roles they needed/wanted filled (aerial siege capability, anti-air) and they just sort of shoved them together. Not that t wasn't cohesive, but there were better ways of doing it.

I REALLY don't see how those units would fix the problems they're having now.

Kimera757
05-04-2012, 08:25 PM
I think the Undead faction (and the Night Elves to an extent) are just to rich to cut them. Or make them a part of the Horde/Alliance.

Alas, the Scourge are kind of boring now.


And honestly, I don't really see the point. Except to make it like WoW. Particularly the Undead as of Cataclysm just have SO MANY potential new units. (Like the Val'kyr) That would be so great to see in an RTS setting.

The Valkyr are an undead unit? For a second, I thought they were a neutral race.


They had the Carrier in the game. They decided to get rid of it. The Goliath is pretty darn straight-forward and dull.

I'll give you the Corsair, I think, but even then... and I don't think the Corsair's ability really fit it, I think it was sort of like the WC3 batrider, where they had two roles they needed/wanted filled (aerial siege capability, anti-air) and they just sort of shoved them together. Not that t wasn't cohesive, but there were better ways of doing it.

I REALLY don't see how those units would fix the problems they're having now.

I think the old-style gamers (like David Kim) might have banned cool but hard to use units. Dustin Browder does the designing, and Kim recommends dumping ones that don't work competitively.

Aldrius
05-05-2012, 02:49 PM
Alas, the Scourge are kind of boring now.

Well I assume we'd be playing as the Forsaken with the next game. (Or Forsaken and Scourge could have different but similar tech trees) Which have LOTS of new toys. Blight, Val'kyr.


The Valkyr are an undead unit? For a second, I thought they were a neutral race.

Huh? You played through the new Cataclysm Undead zones? The Val'kyr are very prominently allied with the Forsaken now.


I think the old-style gamers (like David Kim) might have banned cool but hard to use units. Dustin Browder does the designing, and Kim recommends dumping ones that don't work competitively.

Is that a response to what I said? =S

Kimera757
05-05-2012, 04:50 PM
Huh? You played through the new Cataclysm Undead zones? The Val'kyr are very prominently allied with the Forsaken now.

I've never played World of Warcraft. It's not my kind of game.


Is that a response to what I said? =S

To someone anyway, about how Blizzard removes all the creative units.

Jconant
05-07-2012, 04:46 PM
Since blizzard's history of making games always borrows good elements of one game and reuses them in another in some way, I wouldn't be surprised if Diablo 3 inspires new units for Starcraft or the next RTS installment to the Warcraft series.

for example, blizzard and frost orb were token sorcerer skills that are reused as a signature mage spells in warcraft. Burrow that is a trait of zerg was reused for nerubian units...

A lot of skills in Diablo 3 are themselves reincarnations of skills: wizards: mirror image, teleport/ blink, archon.

its a pattern. Hopefully it can stir a bit more creativity into HoTS multiplayer, but I expect some interesting things will prop up in the last starcraft expansion.