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View Full Version : [Assumption] First Shot Of The Brood Lord



DemolitionSquid
05-08-2009, 05:17 PM
http://images.gamestar.de/images/idgwpgsgp/bdb/2007441/800x600_prop.jpg

Yummy. Looks like a big Scourge. Or A slightly remodeled Guardian.

Santrega
05-08-2009, 05:18 PM
Wtf? I mean it does look interesting... but geez, its a little boring too :-/

RainbowToeSocks
05-08-2009, 05:24 PM
Honestly I'm very dissapointed...
Makes me think of infestor pit

Eligor
05-08-2009, 05:25 PM
As I've said elsewhere, this is a very nice design. Very graphic and appropriately nasty, almost vampyric in appearance.

Nicol Bolas
05-08-2009, 05:38 PM
It looks more like the current line of Zerg units than the Swarm Guardian model did. But for a unit that's going out of its way to not have "Guardian" in its name, the model is way too derivative of the Guardian.

Pandonetho
05-08-2009, 05:40 PM
IMO it looks terrible. It's one giant massive scourge. I like the Swarm Guardian model much more.

electricmole
05-08-2009, 05:51 PM
i thought the broodlord was going to be completely different from the guardian. That is the guardian. This is a chance to introduce a new zerg flying monster and i can't believe it just looks like the old guardian.

The_Blade
05-08-2009, 05:51 PM
have to agree with the boring look...

it needs a twiking and it need to look more menasing and not like the old guardian.

The design is still good for a mod or a map that will revive the old starcraft.

But the other look was lore-wise like "where all the plasma it spitted" is created

Heronkill
05-08-2009, 06:09 PM
Well if they meant for it not to look like the guardian, they definitely failed. But other than that, I like the model, it will most likely go through a lot of polishing, but I like the base model.

PsiWarp
05-08-2009, 06:17 PM
Would someone care to eliminate that hideous white space, hmm?

IMO it looks okay, not particularly striking, but will do for now. It's cool how the wing flaps look like Creep :)


-Psi

Germanvirus
05-08-2009, 06:23 PM
It looks kinda cool...

*shrugs* I'll wait to see it in-game

mr. peasant
05-08-2009, 06:25 PM
It sorts of depends how the Broodlings look like. If they wind up looking like little Brood Lord Mini-Mes, it could work.

Junzou
05-08-2009, 06:45 PM
Huh, that looks interesting.

Dauntless
05-08-2009, 07:39 PM
I'll wait with deciding if I like it or not until I see it in action.

Norfindel
05-08-2009, 09:03 PM
It's just a Guardian with some more meat, and the same attack. Why would someone call them "Brood Lords" is beyond me.

TheEconomist
05-08-2009, 10:09 PM
I'm none to impressed by the model either. Granted, it's hard to judge it by such a tiny picture and not in motion in-game.

It's still an air unit, right? It's kind of hard to tell from that picture...

RainbowToeSocks
05-08-2009, 10:16 PM
it really doesnt have much team colour on it..
maybe those yellow sacs should be team coloured

Edfishy
05-08-2009, 10:48 PM
First impression? Worse than the Swarm Guardian, but that's just because the previous Swarm Guardian had an awesome cool tail. :)

XSOLDIER
05-08-2009, 10:50 PM
If that's true, I'm quite disappointed... With the new textures that the Zerg unit've been getting, The Swarm Guardian model would've looked amazing. Especially after seeing the changes in the Queen's model.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/X-SOLDIER/BroodLordVsSwarmGuardian.jpg

http://sclegacy.com/images/uploaded/blizzardnews/thUpdatedQueen.jpg


X :cool:

The_Blade
05-08-2009, 10:53 PM
would like to see the swarm guardin polished.
the brood lord looks quite polished to be the first impresion.

Pandonetho
05-08-2009, 10:56 PM
Seriously, swarm guardian and broodlord get into a fight. Swarm guardian wraps its body around the broodlord and crushes it with brute strength. Swarm guardian wins.

XSOLDIER
05-08-2009, 11:00 PM
Here's a less gigantic version that's not image tagged for anyone interested.


http://images.gamestar.de/images/gamestar/bdb/2007441/336x252.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/X-SOLDIER/SGvsBL.jpg

X :cool:

Aldrius
05-08-2009, 11:08 PM
Looks good, but looks horrible compared to the swarm guardian.

RainbowToeSocks
05-08-2009, 11:09 PM
Here's a less gigantic version that's not image tagged for anyone interested.

How could anyone want that?
Its hideous
Swarm Guardian looked so much more cool.
Lets take a coat hanger to it while its still in production

n00bonicPlague
05-08-2009, 11:13 PM
interesting......got an original link?

Edfishy
05-08-2009, 11:15 PM
I'm wondering if the tail was just too much for the game engine to handle. All that turning and swaying...

After all, it seems as though they've taken out whatever system was in place before that would randomize all of the animations, preventing duplicate animations from playing simultaneously. Physic tails might hurt, processor-wise.

An overgrown Scourge in any case.

XSOLDIER
05-08-2009, 11:16 PM
Do you mean a link to the image source?

http://www.gamestar.de/_misc/galleries/detail.cfm?pk=80988&fk=2007441&pid=6

How'd ya stumble on this image anyways DS?


X :cool:

n00bonicPlague
05-08-2009, 11:25 PM
Do you mean a link to the image source?

http://www.gamestar.de/_misc/galleries/detail.cfm?pk=80988&fk=2007441&pid=6

That works -- thanks :D

Eligor
05-08-2009, 11:59 PM
I think Blizz were concerned that the old model takes up too much screen space, and reduced its szie because of that.

RainbowToeSocks
05-09-2009, 12:02 AM
I think Blizz were concerned that the old model takes up too much screen space, and reduced its szie because of that.

Well if that was the case, it would have looked better if they took the swarm guardian model, removed the 'tail' part and made the back two tentacle/claw/spike things smaller or removed them.

Make it look more like the original guardian

XSOLDIER
05-09-2009, 12:05 AM
I think Blizz were concerned that the old model takes up too much screen space, and reduced its szie because of that.

I think they could've shortened it by a tail section, and it wouldn't be too much worse than a BC / Carrier.


X :cool:

LordArreat15
05-09-2009, 12:05 AM
Its OK, not as awesome as to the Swarm Guardian, but Blizzard will update the models over time like they done in the past.

FlashWar
05-09-2009, 12:16 AM
It could be better, I don't mind it.

Lethithan
05-09-2009, 12:46 AM
I like it.

Although Swarm Guardian with its tail removed might work as well.

GRUNT
05-09-2009, 12:51 AM
I think it looks fine - if it's too big (like I think the Swarm Guardian was), it ends up looking too much like a capital ship.

Rizhall
05-09-2009, 01:09 AM
I like it. It's not excessively spiky like every other unit. I think they might as well just call it the Swarm Guardian again though.

Alex06
05-09-2009, 01:17 AM
Damn that thing looks ugly. The old Swarm Guardian model looked better. Especially since we have to consider they're the same creature as the Guardian, both.

viperjo
05-09-2009, 01:51 AM
I like it. Its familiar looking but distinctly new.

Zabimaru
05-09-2009, 01:56 AM
I will reserve my judgment till I see a bit more off it in other screenshots etc... but first impressions isn’t too high.

pure.Wasted
05-09-2009, 03:01 AM
The Swarm Guardian was infinitely superior. It looked interesting and unique, instead of this glob of floating flesh.

Airfestor much?

Nicol's right. If they're gonna keep its shape so close to the Guardian, why bother changing the name, when the one that looked far more interesting and different was a Guardian just fine?

Fail on all counts.

mr. peasant
05-09-2009, 05:19 AM
Actually, has anyone considered the possibility that they remodeled the Swarm Guardian/Brood Lord because of the Infestor? As I'm sure everyone remembers, the Infestor got an art update where it looks more centipede-esque. Perhaps Blizzard felt this new version, while well suited for the Infestor, looked too much like the Swarm Guardian' s old model?

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/thumb/0/05/Infestor_SC2_Cncpt2.jpg/800px-Infestor_SC2_Cncpt2.jpg

Antarus
05-09-2009, 06:38 AM
http://images.gamestar.de/images/idgwpgsgp/bdb/2007441/800x600_prop.jpg

Yummy. Looks like a big Scourge. Or A slightly remodeled Guardian.

I have to admit, the model is not perfect, but it has potential, I would like to see it in about 2 months when it has gone through a few passes.

Sheliek
05-09-2009, 07:17 AM
As I first saw that image, all I could say was 'why Brood Lord?'. Honestly, I really like the model; it is an updated Swarm Guardian model, sans the tail, or the name. That screenshot, in my opinion, is admitedly low-quality (there's a bit of blur to it), so perhaps some proper action shots would be better.

All in all, I love the model; it looks exactly like the Guardian from SCI, so I'm hoping it get's a rename, and perhaps a few more passes through the art team.

TheEconomist
05-09-2009, 09:43 AM
Anyone else think it's a bit odd that the Brood Lord model picture casts a Mutalisk's (or at least a unit or doodad that's not in the shape of Brood Lord) shadow?

I smell photoshop imprints :D

RamiZ
05-09-2009, 09:56 AM
Anyone else think it's a bit odd that the Brood Lord model picture casts a Mutalisk's (or at least a unit or doodad that's not in the shape of Brood Lord) shadow?

I smell photoshop imprints :D

Its not his shadow, it is mutalisks shadow, they are probably behind him....Also im ok with model, i just cant stand the name Brood Lord....They could use Guardian, Swarm Guradian, Brood Guardian, but Brood Lord is awful name for units that is same as Guardian (Same purpose, almost same look...)

TheEconomist
05-09-2009, 10:15 AM
I guess it's possible but it looks kind of like a photoshopped drone to me.

Can I get a link or a scan of the actual article itself? I've only ever seen paraphrasing and translation; never the actual article.

scorpio19
05-09-2009, 11:22 AM
very large forum...very large broodlord...

scorpio19
05-09-2009, 11:26 AM
Please expand a bit on this forum

Edfishy
05-09-2009, 11:44 AM
Actually, has anyone considered the possibility that they remodeled the Swarm Guardian/Brood Lord because of the Infestor? As I'm sure everyone remembers, the Infestor got an art update where it looks more centipede-esque. Perhaps Blizzard felt this new version, while well suited for the Infestor, looked too much like the Swarm Guardian' s old model?

Ah, very good point! There would be a redundancy in the tails.

Here's a comparison between the Guardian and the Brood Lord. Brood Lord seems simpler by comparison, but close overall.

http://www.zanmgt.com/aaron/guardian.jpg

mr. peasant
05-09-2009, 11:48 AM
Actually, the thing the Brood Lord most closely resembles is a Drone.

http://images.gamestar.de/images/gamestar/bdb/2007441/336x252.jpghttp://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/thumb/e/ec/Drone_SC2_Rend2.jpg/200px-Drone_SC2_Rend2.jpg

DemolitionSquid
05-09-2009, 11:50 AM
Looks like a fat Scourge to me.

http://game.scuniverse.net/images/default/zerg/sco.png

RainbowToeSocks
05-09-2009, 11:57 AM
Looks like a fat Scourge to me.

You are crazy
it looks like a drone/guardian... just ugly

Scourges were so cute and cuddly... this just is not.

scorpio19
05-09-2009, 12:15 PM
Actually, the thing the Brood Lord most closely resembles is a Drone.

http://images.gamestar.de/images/gamestar/bdb/2007441/336x252.jpghttp://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/thumb/e/ec/Drone_SC2_Rend2.jpg/200px-Drone_SC2_Rend2.jpg

+1 flying drone..

The_Blade
05-09-2009, 12:15 PM
it actually looks like an old queen, cutted in half, gave us the tail and hitted it with a hamer to flaten it.

although it might be exciting to see this unit evolve from a drone rather than from a larvae

Tanker
05-09-2009, 12:18 PM
So it seems that this Blood Lord is some king of a "tank" unit.... I think ultralisk would be better...and does blood lord have 2 heads/mouths or whatever?

RamiZ
05-09-2009, 12:37 PM
So it seems that this Blood Lord is some king of a "tank" unit.... I think ultralisk would be better...and does blood lord have 2 heads/mouths or whatever?

What are you talking about :) ?

Rylin
05-09-2009, 12:50 PM
If the Drone were Luke Skywalker, the Brood Lord would be Darth Vader :P

XSOLDIER
05-09-2009, 01:39 PM
Minus the extended tail, the Swarm Guardians were pretty close to the original too. I dunno what it is, but I'm just not too keen on the Brood Lord's design...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/X-SOLDIER/G_GROUP_SC1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/X-SOLDIER/SG_Group_SC2.jpg


X :cool:

Arziak
05-09-2009, 02:05 PM
I'll wait with deciding if I like it or not until I see it in action.

me too! so far it loks...ok. but not awesome

schnubor
05-09-2009, 04:15 PM
i guess the model will be updated as soon as itīs worth it. they are probably testing the unit right now and check wether it makes sense the create a more detailed/better model because the unit actually fits into the game or come up with an completly new unit/idea.

ManjiSanji
05-09-2009, 04:22 PM
Personally, I like the look of it. It's intimidating. Not original, but it is intimidating. It looks very Zerg.

I preferred the undulating caterpillar model, but truthfully it didn't appear very intimidating.

MattII
05-09-2009, 05:18 PM
To me it's most like a fleshed out version of the SC Guardian, but then that's just me. I'm still wondering why they changed the name though, are they going to introduce a new ability or two, or is it just a model/name revamp?

ManjiSanji
05-09-2009, 06:45 PM
They probably changed the name because, "Guardian," implies defense. The Guardian (and by extension the Swarm Guardian) never really played much of a defensive role. Neither did the Queen, and they changed the unit to fit that. They changed the Guardian to Brood Lord to imply its more offense-oriented role.

dukeluke
05-09-2009, 08:08 PM
It doesn't look that good at all....

MattII
05-09-2009, 08:14 PM
Agreed, it seems a bit, well, plain really, though I'll reserve judging properly till I've seen it in motion.

ManjiSanji
05-09-2009, 10:32 PM
Huh
Well, alright then, what do you guys think it should look like?
Do you still want the whole, "Basically a Guardian that spawns Broodlings when it attacks?"
Or are you guys wanting something different?

Did you prefer one of the two older models?

MattII
05-09-2009, 11:01 PM
Personally I'd be okay with the old Swarm Guardian with one or two of the tail sections knocked off. As for the abilities, I definitely want it to spawn units, but not as the Swarm Guardian did, I'd prefer him to carry units like the Reaver did, and the units could be either Scourgettes or Broodlings (two per build).

ManjiSanji
05-10-2009, 02:01 AM
So an air-to-ground Reaver?
Hmm, that's definitely an interesting idea...

MattII
05-10-2009, 03:07 AM
Actually, more like an AtA Reaver with Broodling (except it doesn't kill the host). I wouldn't give it any base attack either.

RamiZ
05-10-2009, 05:43 AM
Actually, more like an AtA Reaver with Broodling (except it doesn't kill the host). I wouldn't give it any base attack either.

We have Corruptor for that, they could change that units, but personally i like the things are now, Corruptors and Guardians...(Sheeeehs....everything is ok except the nae Brood Lord, it just plain Stupid, Brood Guardian is awsome for me ;))

SoFool
05-10-2009, 06:21 AM
If that's really the brood lord I'm pretty disappointed, if that's a swarm guardian...well it looks ok I guess. I also thought it looks like a big flying drone.

Caine
05-10-2009, 10:01 AM
like I said in a difrent forum.
the uglyest looking unit I have seen in a RTS game so far

The_Blade
05-10-2009, 10:05 AM
you got to be kidding!

the ugliest unit ever is the infestor!

TheEconomist
05-10-2009, 10:37 AM
i guess the model will be updated as soon as itīs worth it. they are probably testing the unit right now and check wether it makes sense the create a more detailed/better model because the unit actually fits into the game or come up with an completly new unit/idea.

I agree.

It's obviously an unfinished model that they haven't put much work into yet. The only reason I could think of that would explain this is the above quote.

ManjiSanji
05-10-2009, 12:36 PM
Frankly, I don't see what the problem with the name is. It sounds fine. Not the most original thing in the world, but neither is the unit.

But then again, how much more original can we get with a Zerg air-to-ground unit?
I think the model looks awesome. Again, obviously not original, but I think it looks good. I prefer the very first Swarm Guardian model, but this one is way more intimidating, which I think is a look all Zerg should possess. They've definitely been updating the units to appear much more intimidating lately.

Freespace
05-10-2009, 12:39 PM
you got to be kidding!

the ugliest unit ever is the infestor!

I'm looking forward to the redesigned infestor, though. There was a pretty cool concept from Samwise with a new version.

XSOLDIER
05-10-2009, 01:01 PM
If that's really the brood lord I'm pretty disappointed, if that's a swarm guardian...well it looks ok I guess. I also thought it looks like a big flying drone.

The Swarm Guardian was replaced by the Brood Lord, so I think that should answer your question. Cue the disappointment.


X :cool:

RamiZ
05-10-2009, 01:11 PM
The Swarm Guardian was replaced by the Brood Lord, so I think that should answer your question. Cue the disappointment.


I think he know that, but what actually he meant is that Brood Lord needed to be new unit, so if it looks really similar to the Guardian, then there is no point in giving it new name....And i agree with him...

SoFool
05-10-2009, 08:05 PM
Haha yea that's why I have the word "if" from my previous post +)

ManjiSanji
05-10-2009, 09:32 PM
Hmm, since people were so largely unhappy with the Brood Lord model (and name), I was thinking about doing something different for it (and somebody mentioned making it in to a flying Reaver):

What if the model were changed to a giant mass of forward-facing tentacles, and each "large" tentacle was essentially a missile purchased with minerals in the same way Scarabs were purchased for the Reaver. These tentacles then fire at a chosen ground target, do fairly substantial damage (100? Subject to balance) and then burst in to multiple Broodlings (8ish? Subject to balance).

It's definitely different, it still maintains the air-to-ground siege function, the model would be different (and hopefully frightening and intimidating), and the cost causes a need for you to make tactical choices. Also, it fits in with the whole, "For the Swarm," suicidal bit the Zerg go for.

I thought of calling it the Brood Fiend? /shrug

Blazur
05-10-2009, 09:42 PM
I think it looks pretty sexy, although very reminiscent of the original Guardian. But I'm okay with that.

However, if they're gonna give it the same looks and nearly similar role to the original Guardian I wish they would just retain that name. Also, save the original model for the Swarm Guardian for an expansion unit...because that thing looked cool as hell.

Nicol Bolas
05-10-2009, 09:44 PM
each "large" tentacle was essentially a missile purchased with minerals in the same way Scarabs were purchased for the Reaver

Such an ability would be entirely antithetical to the functioning of the Zerg race. It is a basic trait of Zerg units to be "simple". That is, if they have specific abilities at all, they are passive. Obviously spellcasters break this, but that is true only of spellcasters. Outside of Burrow, which is a global upgrade shared by almost-all ground units, non-spellcaster Zerg units don't get active abilities. Zerg unit micro is a function of spellcaster usage, basic unit control, and burrow.

StarCraft 2 has held on to this design ethic of the Zerg race. It's one of the reason why Zerg units seem so dissimilar from SC1. A ranged unit that can hit both ground and air is a Hydralisk, if for no other reason than that you can't really do much more with it than that without giving it an active ability of some kind (blink, stim, etc).

If you want to have something "Reaver-like" among the Zerg, it needs to follow Zerg design principles. My old suggestion of the "Hunter Killer" did something like this. It was basically a unit that required ammunition, but it generated ammo automatically. It was like a Reaver, but different in that it was centered around giving a powerful attack initially and then being relatively useless over the course of the next part of the battle. The HK would run out of ammo fairly frequently.

By contrast, Reavers rarely run out of ammo. The ammo requirement is basically an APM and money sink. You couldn't really have a unit that builds its ammo from resources automatically; auto-spending money is a big no-no. And since Zerg units can't have active abilities, you can't have a Zerg unit that uses money like a Reaver or Carrier.

SpiderBrigade
05-10-2009, 09:58 PM
Nicol, it would be easy to combine your Hunter Killer idea (which I remember fondly) with the Brood Fiend tentacles. They regrow over time, there is an initial "spike" of damage where it generates a sizable army of Broodlings, but then the rate of fire slows down as it has to grow new tentacles.

ManjiSanji
05-10-2009, 10:48 PM
Nicol, it would be easy to combine your Hunter Killer idea (which I remember fondly) with the Brood Fiend tentacles. They regrow over time, there is an initial "spike" of damage where it generates a sizable army of Broodlings, but then the rate of fire slows down as it has to grow new tentacles.

I thought about something like that too, where they regrow over time, and, perhaps normally slowly, or you could pay minerals for them to regrow immediately.

So Hunter Killer Tentacles? Could be fun.

Nicol Bolas
05-10-2009, 11:10 PM
They regrow over time, there is an initial "spike" of damage where it generates a sizable army of Broodlings, but then the rate of fire slows down as it has to grow new tentacles.

I don't know if that's good for a flying unit, particularly a slow one. The main reason I felt the HK could get away with it was that it could always burrow to recharge. That's not perfect protection, but it's pretty good, especially if there are other dangerous units around.

Flying units can't exactly hide when they run out of ammo. So if anything survived the first attack, the flier is basically at the mercy of whomever can shoot at it.

SpiderBrigade
05-10-2009, 11:46 PM
Well, from what I remember, the limiting factor was the regrowth rate of the spines/tentacles. It sounds like you're imagining something that would take far too long to be useful in combat. However it could also be made equivalent to a regular (if slow) attack cooldown.

So the Brood Fiend could have a maximum of, say, 5 tentacles. In the first few seconds of combat it would fire all of these off, giving it a powerful initial attack as you've described. But then it would still be able to contribute for the rest of the battle, similar to other slow-firing ranged units like Siege tanks or the old Guardian (although slower). Keep in mind that the initial attacks are generating a huge swarm of support units, which will continue to be replenished by subsequent attacks.

ManjiSanji
05-10-2009, 11:51 PM
Well, from what I remember, the limiting factor was the regrowth rate of the spines/tentacles. It sounds like you're imagining something that would take far too long to be useful in combat. However it could also be made equivalent to a regular (if slow) attack cooldown.

So the Brood Fiend could have a maximum of, say, 5 tentacles. In the first few seconds of combat it would fire all of these off, giving it a powerful initial attack as you've described. But then it would still be able to contribute for the rest of the battle, similar to other slow-firing ranged units like Siege tanks or the old Guardian (although slower). Keep in mind that the initial attacks are generating a huge swarm of support units, which will continue to be replenished by subsequent attacks.

Hmm, so the initial 5 tentacle-missiles would be the big punch, and then it could still fire off a weaker attack? Or the tentacle-missiles would be like a sort of...special attack or strong support attack while it also still has a regular, weaker attack used in the replenishment period?

I wish there was a way to have a unit like that; it sounds fun.

SpiderBrigade
05-11-2009, 12:05 AM
ManjiSanji, the Tentacles would be the only attack the unit has. They take a certain amount of time to regrow, and the unit can have a certain number at any one time. So if it is fresh it will have all 5 (or however many is balanced). Then before it can fire again it needs to regrow a new tentacle, which would create a cooldown similar to other units.

ManjiSanji
05-11-2009, 12:10 AM
ManjiSanji, the Tentacles would be the only attack the unit has. They take a certain amount of time to regrow, and the unit can have a certain number at any one time. So if it is fresh it will have all 5 (or however many is balanced). Then before it can fire again it needs to regrow a new tentacle, which would create a cooldown similar to other units.

Oh I see. Ok, I like that. So, dismissing the Reaver, "cost-for-ammo," idea?
I'm fine with that, just throwing ideas around, honestly.

I'd also like to see the Broodlings sort of changed in to similar, "Tentacular monstrosities," to coincide with the whole idea. Sort of like the Brood Fiend is spitting out chunks of itself that don't survive very long away from the host body, and tear themselves apart attacking the enemy.

SpiderBrigade
05-11-2009, 12:15 AM
I look forward to seeing this unit in a custom mission, if nothing else :D

0neder
05-11-2009, 01:50 AM
I think it looks pretty sexy, although very reminiscent of the original Guardian. But I'm okay with that.

However, if they're gonna give it the same looks and nearly similar role to the original Guardian I wish they would just retain that name. Also, save the original model for the Swarm Guardian for an expansion unit...because that thing looked cool as hell.

I agree. I wonder how many people would hate the current model if it was just called "guardian" to begin with? Probably fewer...I have no problems with the current model, and guardian is better than brood lord.

ManjiSanji
05-11-2009, 02:24 AM
and guardian is better than brood lord.

Why, exactly?
It doesn't really guard anything. It's a unit designed for offense, not defense.

RamiZ
05-11-2009, 03:17 AM
Why, exactly?
It doesn't really guard anything. It's a unit designed for offense, not defense.

Cuz it simply is better, it is better name then Brood Lord....It doesnt have nothing to do with a name....Like if it have Guardian name, it must defend something...well no...that is just plain stupid....Like i would say that Marauder is ba name cuz it doesnt have anything to do with a unit....

Garius
05-11-2009, 08:54 AM
Damn, I thought it would be more better. but it looks exactly like the Guardian in 3d. Hell. Blizzard just rename it the Guardian since it looks exactly like it.

TheEconomist
05-11-2009, 10:25 AM
@ManjiSanji: I don't like the idea of a Zerg air-to-ground Reaver. See Nicol Nolas' post for an opinion similar to my own.


Also, save the original model for the Swarm Guardian for an expansion unit...because that thing looked cool as hell.

I hope they do this as well if they keep this current model. I enjoyed even the caterpillar look much more than this. Granted, it is unfinished and the Zerg models have changed a lot since they were announced. I doubt I'll be disappointed with what they do with this model in the end so I'm not worried at all.

ExT
05-11-2009, 07:50 PM
Oh big sadz. Could have at least made a new model that didn't look like the Guardian. I always felt it just looked like a flying crab.

MattII
05-11-2009, 07:55 PM
Guardian was really too ambiguous, any of the races could have had a unit with the name. Brood-Lord on the other hand is a properly Zergish name. As for the model, that's just a placeholder, I've no doubt they'll improve it later (hells knows they need to, it's nearly the ugliest Zerg model in SC2, secong only to the original Infestor).

ManjiSanji
05-11-2009, 08:35 PM
@ManjiSanji: I don't like the idea of a Zerg air-to-ground Reaver. See Nicol Nolas' post for an opinion similar to my own.



I hope they do this as well if they keep this current model. I enjoyed even the caterpillar look much more than this. Granted, it is unfinished and the Zerg models have changed a lot since they were announced. I doubt I'll be disappointed with what they do with this model in the end so I'm not worried at all.

Actually I have Nicol on ignore, so if he replied to my comment, I have no idea what it said.

I'm fine with there being no Reaver-like unit, but I thought the idea of paying for high-powered ammo to be a really neat and fun dynamic.

Also, to RamiZ, no, it is not just plain stupid for the unit name to have some reference to what it does. Not at all. In fact, the opposite is true; it is odd for the name of something to have nothing to do with the unit, and, worse, the complete opposite. Frankly, I'm confused as to why you're arguing for something that is, frankly, wholly without logic.

How about we change the name of the Banshee to Defender? Change the name of the Observer to Destroyer? It doesn't work.

Brood Lord is, agreeably, not the best name ever, but at least it relates to the unit; it produces Broodlings. Even the name of the Phoenix, which, in another thread, I was arguing for a change, makes sense, because the unit flies and appears bird-shaped. "Guardian" for a unit that is not designed to guard is just...weird.

sandwich_bird
05-11-2009, 08:49 PM
looks like a guardian to me.

ManjiSanji
05-11-2009, 08:51 PM
looks like a guardian to me.

Ok, could you please explain how?

sandwich_bird
05-12-2009, 12:02 AM
Ok, could you please explain how?Extremly similar form. The only big difference is that the long branch things on the side that serve as wings are connected. http://www.concept13.com/flq/Starcraft/images/Guardian1.gif

ManjiSanji
05-12-2009, 12:49 AM
Extremly similar form. The only big difference is that the long branch things on the side that serve as wings are connected. http://www.concept13.com/flq/Starcraft/images/Guardian1.gif

...that's not at all what I meant.
I was talking about the definition of the word, versus the use of the unit.

Actually, everyone's major complaint about the Brood Lord is that it basically looks just like the old Guardian, and they want something new and original looking, with a different name.

MattII
05-12-2009, 01:06 AM
It also functions like the Swarm Guardian. I think what a lot of us are waiting for is for Blizzard to announce that there is actually a difference between the SG and the BL other than the aesthetic one.

ManjiSanji
05-12-2009, 01:20 AM
I think they did mention that it has 350 HP, which is fairly significant, but I wouldn't say game changing. I think it's more to account for the (hopeful) increase in air-to-air units.

MattII
05-12-2009, 02:38 AM
Can't be, there's no more AtA units now than there was before, there's less in fact (Wraith->Viking, Valkyrie->?, Mutalisk->Mutalisk, Devourer->Corruptor, Scourge->?, Scout->Void Ray, Corsair->Phoenix). The reason that was done probably is because of the sudden increase in AtG, now that air can have some influence on a battle (beyond transport and support roles) AtA is becoming more common.

RamiZ
05-12-2009, 03:21 AM
@ManjiSanji
Wait you dont understand? Lets put it this way on whole this forum i think you are the only one that accept name Brood Lord, its disgusting....especially for the Zerg....They dont need Lords and blah blah yes i know Overlord got lord in name but it is one word, and btw i didnt see people complaining over Guardians in SC BW and they didnt complain about Swarm Guardians, so your point Fails, cuz yeah it would be wrong to call all that units that way, but Guardian is old unit and accepted by community, why would they change it now, I know it is different from Guardian but it still has his role, AtG Siege Attacker, and it is Stronger, My favourite would be Brood Guardian, but not the whole name...


Wraith->Viking, Valkyrie->?
Actually Valkyrie->Viking, Wraith->Banshee...

pure.Wasted
05-12-2009, 03:48 AM
Actually, everyone's major complaint about the Brood Lord is that it basically looks just like the old Guardian, and they want something new and original looking, with a different name.

Blizzard had the Swarm Guardian. It wasn't terribly inventive, but everybody liked it. And whatever their thoughts about the unit, most people loved the model. The unit's name represented its similarity to the original and did not try to pass it off as something completely new when it was not something completely new.

And cue Blizzard fixing what wasn't broken. They change the name to pretend that it's something cool and different (when it isn't); they make it look worse; they give the Zerg a capital ship-class air unit, the absence of which has for a long time been seen as part of their identity.

None of these are huge, but when you take it all in at once, it's jarring.

Nicol Bolas
05-12-2009, 12:33 PM
they give the Zerg a capital ship-class air unit

No, they did not.

It doesn't matter how many HP the Brood Lord or whatever it is has; it isn't a capital ship unless it can attack both air and ground. Carriers and BattleCruisers can take care of themselves; Brood Lords can't. The Hp are there so that they don't die instantly when Vikings/Corruptors/Phoenixes show up on the scene, and thus there is some chance to defend them with your own Corruptors/Mutalisks.

pure.Wasted
05-12-2009, 01:47 PM
No, they did not.

It doesn't matter how many HP the Brood Lord or whatever it is has; it isn't a capital ship unless it can attack both air and ground. Carriers and BattleCruisers can take care of themselves; Brood Lords can't. The Hp are there so that they don't die instantly when Vikings/Corruptors/Phoenixes show up on the scene, and thus there is some chance to defend them with your own Corruptors/Mutalisks.

That's a pretty random definition you got there, Nicol. Gonna bring up Wiki on this one:

"The capital ships of a navy are its "important" warships; the ones with the heaviest firepower and armor."

Seems like the Brood Lord, what with increased cost, increased HP, and its steady ridiculous firepower, would fit their definition no problem. The only ships that qualified for capital ship status in the original game were ones that happened to attack both air and ground; that is a coincidence, not a law writ in stone.

By your definition, the WWI Mothership less its air attack and with a Black Hole tuned to ground units instead of air would not have been a capital ship... when in reality, it would remain the most capital ship-like candidate of them all.

Nicol Bolas
05-12-2009, 01:55 PM
That's a pretty random definition you got there, Nicol.

It also effectively describes the two ships that had "capital" status from SC1: things that if you get enough of them, can take care of themselves. Mass BCs is really hard to stop, and mass Carriers is hard to stop.

Mass Brood Lords will never be hard to stop. Nobody will ever GG to pure mass Brood Lords.

Aldrius
05-12-2009, 01:59 PM
Actually Valkyrie->Viking, Wraith->Banshee...

Not... really...

In terms of it's stats, the Viking is something of a mix between the Goliath and the Wraith. While the Banshee is just... a completely new unit entirely.

pure.Wasted
05-12-2009, 02:29 PM
It also effectively describes the two ships that had "capital" status from SC1: things that if you get enough of them, can take care of themselves. Mass BCs is really hard to stop, and mass Carriers is hard to stop.

Mass Brood Lords will never be hard to stop. Nobody will ever GG to pure mass Brood Lords.

And would any IRL army ever GG to pure mass naval forces, which are the very definition of capital ships? No. Then your interpretation of capital ship means squat.

That both the BC and the Carrier could attack air and ground and qualified as capital ships is coincidence. Judging SC2 units by a standard set through coincidence will lead to bizarrely incorrect conclusions, as evidenced by the ones you have drawn here.

Once again, I repeat that that version of the Mothership would not fall under your definition of 'capital ship' despite the fact that it would be the "most important" ship with the "heaviest firepower and armor." Your classifications would prevent the most capital ship-esque capital ship in the game... from being classified as a capital ship. If that's not wrong, I don't know what is.

Nicol Bolas
05-12-2009, 02:47 PM
Gameplay wise, the Brood Lord has no relationship to the gameplay functionality of the BattleCruiser or the Carrier. The point of having general classes of units is to discuss how they could be used; all units in the same general class should be able to generally do the same things. If BLs can't be used in the same way as BCs or Carriers, then classifying them in that same category is necessarily wrong, regardless of what the military definition of how many definitions of the word "capital ship" is.

However, let's say that your definition of "capital ships" is correct. I contest that the Zerg not having this definition of "capital ships" was a Zerg racial trait at all.

What makes the Zerg interesting is that they really rely on a mix of units to be effective. They have generalists and specialists; this is an outgrowth of their unit production mechanism and tech tree. Because of that, their army is generally built around 1-2 units that have 1-3 additional helper units to make them more effective.

Thus the Zerg racial trait wasn't not having a high Hp flying unit, but instead it was that they didn't have a single high Hp flying unit that they could build lots of and win. No matter how many Hp you give the Brood Lord, it will never be anything more than a flying Siege Tank. It will always have explicit and hard counters, just like any good support unit. Sending Brood Lords into a battle alone is the best way to watch them die, whereas sending BCs and Carriers in alone is perfectly reasonable if you build enough of them.

Brood Lords have nothing gameplay-wise in common with BCs and Carriers.

MattII
05-12-2009, 03:16 PM
Actually Valkyrie->Viking, Wraith->Banshee...

Since when did the Banshee get AtA, and the Viking splash-damage?

pure.Wasted
05-12-2009, 03:51 PM
Gameplay wise, the Brood Lord has no relationship to the gameplay functionality of the BattleCruiser or the Carrier. The point of having general classes of units is to discuss how they could be used; all units in the same general class should be able to generally do the same things. If BLs can't be used in the same way as BCs or Carriers, then classifying them in that same category is necessarily wrong, regardless of what the military definition of how many definitions of the word "capital ship" is.

How about "giant siege airship that's meant to devastate enemy bases from afar"? Seems like he fits right in with the Battlecruiser and Carrier of yore, although less with the BC of SC2, and more with the Carrier of SC2 (increased range).

If that's not similarity enough, then I'm not sure what sort of huge similarities you're seeing between the Battlecruiser and Carrier. For simplicity's sake (since both were considered capitals back then, too) let's compare them in their SC1 forms:

Battlecruiser, especially with Yamato, is a lot more powerful vs. single targets and armored foes... whereas Carrier is a lot stronger against masses of biological units that have little armor. In one on one, the BC always wins, no contest.

So there are huge differences between the two capital ships we already have. The only things they have in common is relative tech position, cost, hefty HP/armor, potential for devastation, and ability to attack ground and air... but the last is clearly coincidental, not a mandatory guideline. And the Brood Lord fits along with the Carrier and Battlecruiser on all other counts no problem.


However, let's say that your definition of "capital ships" is correct. I contest that the Zerg not having this definition of "capital ships" was a Zerg racial trait at all.

The funny thing is, I don't even care about the capital ship business. It's something I heard about on the forums that other people didn't like, and it made sense to me, so I threw it in there for good measure.

For me personally it's that Blizzard fixed something that wasn't broken in such a hideous, hideous fashion that's unlikable. A lot of the cooler new units have been brought down to be more in line with their SC1 counterparts, Mothership = Arbiter, Infestor = Defiler, Phoenix = Scout/Corsair, Ghost = less massable than before, Nydus Worm = Nydus Canal... and it's really disappointing to see. And then on top of it all Blizz takes a unit that we all knew was almost a SC1>SC2 copy/paste job but were fine with and tries to sell it off as something completely new? Maybe it would have been fine when the game was just announced, but after so many disappointing throwbacks to the original game, it's a little too much.

To be fair, I seriously doubt they did this on purpose, ie. someone said, "Let's fool everybody into thinking this is a new unit by naming it something different!" But it's the unintentional straw that broke the camel's back, as it were.


Brood Lords have nothing gameplay-wise in common with BCs and Carriers.

I already addressed this above, but specifically the "GG-inducing" factor of BCs and Carriers... Brood Lords can attack ground, and that's the most important part. In fact, attacking ground they pack probably the most heavy punch of all these guys. And that's the most important part in inducing GG, because that's what buildings and 2/3 of units are.

A simple mass of any air units will destroy them? Well, in SC2, masses of Void Rays will have equally little trouble with Battlecruisers, masses of Vikings will have equally little trouble with Carriers... so these units are hardly win buttons.

Nicol Bolas
05-12-2009, 05:19 PM
Battlecruiser, especially with Yamato, is a lot more powerful vs. single targets and armored foes... whereas Carrier is a lot stronger against masses of biological units that have little armor.

It doesn't matter how much armor or Hp a unit has: mass Carriers will kill it fast enough. Why? Because they can't shoot back. Carriers have long range (even longer in SC2); they can kite virtually any unit that isn't flying and faster than them. The reason Goliaths are a strong counter is because they are cheap, plentiful, and can strip them of Intercepters relatively quickly.

That Carriers will kill certain units faster than others is irrelevant when a hundred Intercepters darken the skies. Mass Carriers win, just like mass BCs win.


For me personally it's that Blizzard fixed something that wasn't broken in such a hideous, hideous fashion that's unlikable.

Guardians weren't broken? Going for Guardians in SC1 was, at best, a crap-shoot. Ultralisks and Defilers were the preferred Tier 3 tech of choice. At least these guys can survive some anti-air fire long enough to either escape (if it's ground stuff) or be rescued by AtA (if it's flying).


A lot of the cooler new units have been brought down to be more in line with their SC1 counterparts... and it's really disappointing to see.

Maybe, but that's the nature of balancing: dialing back what is too powerful until it works.


A simple mass of any air units will destroy them?

No, a single air unit that can attack other air units will destroy an arbitrarily large fleet of them. That's the difference. BCs and Carriers will at least take some of the Void Rays and Vikings down with them.

Brood Lords are stopped with ease if they are alone. BCs and Carriers are not. To stop a lone BL fleet, you just need enough AtA to kill them "fast enough". To stop BCs from the air, you need lots of AtA (to cover losses during the battle), as well as micro in case of their missile swarm attack. To stop Carriers, you need AtA that can out-run them (or flank them somehow) in addition to having enough AtA to cover losses from attrition.

pure.Wasted
05-12-2009, 07:38 PM
It doesn't matter how much armor or Hp a unit has: mass Carriers will kill it fast enough. Why? Because they can't shoot back. Carriers have long range (even longer in SC2); they can kite virtually any unit that isn't flying and faster than them. The reason Goliaths are a strong counter is because they are cheap, plentiful, and can strip them of Intercepters relatively quickly.

That Carriers will kill certain units faster than others is irrelevant when a hundred Intercepters darken the skies. Mass Carriers win, just like mass BCs win.

So essentially what you're saying is that Carriers and Battlecruisers are completely different.

Right. Should I pretend that doesn't help the Brood Lord's case by making the guidelines for "capital ship" far less strict?


Guardians weren't broken? Going for Guardians in SC1 was, at best, a crap-shoot. Ultralisks and Defilers were the preferred Tier 3 tech of choice. At least these guys can survive some anti-air fire long enough to either escape (if it's ground stuff) or be rescued by AtA (if it's flying).

Why would you assume that I have a problem with the Guardian's stats being changed? I already said that I was pro- Swarm Guardian, which is already different from the original in a fairly significant respect. They're free to change the unit as much as necessary... but they haven't changed it enough for it to warrant a name change. The model regressing even closer to the Guardian is simply icing insult on an injury cake.


Maybe, but that's the nature of balancing: dialing back what is too powerful until it works.

There's a difference between dialing something back in order to balance it and removing it completely because you haven't found a way to balance it. As trite as this is -- and as loathe as I am to repeat it -- this is SC2, not SC1.5, and there must naturally be a line where we say, "That's enough removing of new things in the name of balance. Take the time to make the new things work instead."

That there is such a line is inarguable. The question is whether we've come to that point or not -- whether the units I noted have become too close to the originals, or this is still acceptable.

Frankly, given SC2's necessarily non-revolutionary approach to gaming, I think it's pretty mandatory for the folks at Blizz to make what new abilities they come up with work. I don't think they're in a position to say "it didn't work out so we'll go with the tried-and-true," and if all else fails, should simply try it out in the Beta and look for the fans suggestions (and there will be plenty) to make it work. Any regressions are huge steps back, and as I said, here was simply the ugly, ugly one that put a stamp on the whole deal.


No, a single air unit that can attack other air units will destroy an arbitrarily large fleet of them. That's the difference. BCs and Carriers will at least take some of the Void Rays and Vikings down with them.

Brood Lords are stopped with ease if they are alone. BCs and Carriers are not. To stop a lone BL fleet, you just need enough AtA to kill them "fast enough". To stop BCs from the air, you need lots of AtA (to cover losses during the battle), as well as micro in case of their missile swarm attack. To stop Carriers, you need AtA that can out-run them (or flank them somehow) in addition to having enough AtA to cover losses from attrition.

Okay, and BCs and Carriers are stopped with ease if you have Lockdown, whereas Brood Lords are not. BCs and Carriers are practically neutered by EMP, whereas Brood Lords shrug it off.

All you've succeeded in demonstrating is that they are different and have different advantages and disadvantages. This is exactly as it SHOULD be. If it weren't so, then we would have reason to become suspicious.


Imagine if SC1 had come out with only the Protoss, no Zerg or Terran. The only infantry we have are Zealots. So what is infantry in SC1? Infantry are tough melee soldiers that have no abilities. BW comes out and Terrans are thrown into the mix. Suddenly, Marines are being touted as infantry, when they are NOT tough (but expendable), NOT melee, and have Stim Packs.

Following your reasoning, we could stubbornly refuse to accept Marines as infantry because they don't fit pre-established criteria... even though the common sense approach suggests that the Marine is more akin to infantry than the Zealot.

You're allowing the incredibly limited examples of the SC world provided by SC1 turn into laws that are set in stone. There is no law that says a capital ship must attack air units; as long as most criteria are met (high tier, high cost, priority target for the enemy to destroy [either because of damage, or abilities, or both]) then it works, simple as that.



All that said, I'm going to go back on calling the Brood Lord a capital ship. 350 HP just doesn't cut it. It is the toughest air unit outside of Carrier/BC/MS, but I don't think that's enough. The rest of my argument still stands -- if a Brood Lord existed with 500 HP instead of 350, but all other stats remained the same, I would fully expect it to deserve capital ship status. ;)

RamiZ
05-12-2009, 08:12 PM
Not... really...

In terms of it's stats, the Viking is something of a mix between the Goliath and the Wraith. While the Banshee is just... a completely new unit entirely.

You are comparing stats? Ok, i compare it with unit Role, and Banshee is Cloak Harasser like Wraith, and Viking is AtA unit(ofc in air mode), just like Valkyrie, and it doesnt need to have splash to be the same unit with same role -.-

pure.Wasted
05-12-2009, 08:24 PM
You are comparing stats? Ok, i compare it with unit Role, and Banshee is Cloak Harasser like Wraith, and Viking is AtA unit(ofc in air mode), just like Valkyrie, and it doesnt need to have splash to be the same unit with same role -.-

Problem is, those are the units' conceptual unit roles. But the Wraith is no good at actual cloaked harassment (except in some TvT situations or all-in builds). If anything, mostly it's just used as a straight-up AtA fighter to counter Dropships.

As far as the Valkyrie/Wraith split is concerned, however, the Viking definitely lands on the Wraith end of things. V/W are both AtA fighters (both with a twist; cloak twist is active, splash twist is passive), but Wraith is anti-big ship and Valkyrie is anti-small ship. This time it is about the unit roles, and you fluxxed them up. :p

ManjiSanji
05-12-2009, 08:51 PM
You are comparing stats? Ok, i compare it with unit Role, and Banshee is Cloak Harasser like Wraith, and Viking is AtA unit(ofc in air mode), just like Valkyrie, and it doesnt need to have splash to be the same unit with same role -.-

The Banshee is more like a cloakable, shorter-range Guardian than it is a Wraith.
The Wraith was horrible at AtG, even with cloak.

Nicol Bolas
05-12-2009, 08:55 PM
they haven't changed it enough for it to warrant a name change.

That kinda depends on what the name change was for. As I understand it, once upon a time the name of the temporary unit spawned by the Swarm Guardian was a "Swarm". That was the new name for Broodlings. So its name made sense. When they decided to call them Broodlings again, the name no longer made sense. I mean, it made a little sense; it's a Guardian that creates swarms of things. But that's about it.

Brood Lord makes more sense in that it spawns Broodlings.

Personally, yes, I agree that the model for the old Swarm Guardian seemed more like a Brood Lord, and this thing is much more of a Swarm Guardian. I expected that when they changed the name and model, it would be to something that looked even less like a Guardian, not more. And maybe they'll eventually settle on "Brood Guardian" or some such.


Take the time to make the new things work instead.

You say that as though everything that they could think of could possibly work. There are ideas that can't work, and there are ideas where it is not worth it to make them work. That is, they would be too disruptive to the current state of the game to make work.

Less time spent on ideas that can't work is more time available for those that can. And as much as it might be cool to have mobile Nydus Worms, I'm willing to accept having Nydus at Tier 2 + Creep Drop as a consolation prize. The fact that it's early coupled with being able to use it offensively without a Hatchery constitutes enough of a difference to me.

Take Drop Pods, one of those popular abilities that got cut early after the Terran reveal. Would you really want Blizzard to spend the time working on that idea, trying different things, over and over for the past year and a half, only to cut it then? That would be a lot of time wasted on something that they had already determined wasn't going to work.

Now there is one thing I think Blizzard could do better: provide better fallbacks when they remove something. The entire Cobra->Firebat->Marauder+Hellion is the kind of model I'd like to see them doing more often. Where they take something out and put in something else, break that something down into its good parts, and distill that into a specific unit or ability. That was a good 6-month period where they were just working the space of possibilities, picking out ideas that they thought worked and putting them into the right place.


if all else fails, should simply try it out in the Beta and look for the fans suggestions (and there will be plenty) to make it work.

So you want Blizzard to hang on to ideas that they know aren't working until Beta?

There are certain levels of changes that you should be willing to make in Beta, and certain ones you shouldn't. Beta is for balance testing: number tweaks, maybe moving a few abilities around, and so forth are fair game. Large-scale mechanics like Nydus Worms are not; those need to be solid, because they affect all of the other things (number tweaks, etc). Change those, and you basically need to restart the Beta.

If they're still doing things like making up new unit abilities, adding new race mechanics, and so forth during Beta, then something is very wrong with Blizzard's development pathway.

RamiZ
05-13-2009, 02:49 AM
The Banshee is more like a cloakable, shorter-range Guardian than it is a Wraith.
The Wraith was horrible at AtG, even with cloak.

Yeah it is Horrible, that doesnt change the fact that they used it just for worker harassment...Dunno myb you are right but to me, they really looks the way i describe it, btw after all Viking in air form doesnt have AtG, no matter how horrible would it be, he doesnt have it... And it doesnt have Cloak neither...
I would say then that Goliath->Viking(In both forms) cuz it has his Role... they just give him air form for AtA attack...

MattII
05-13-2009, 03:05 AM
Actual the Wraith is as close to the Viking's role as the Goliath, perhaps a little closer in fact, given that the Viking is a Starport unit.

flabortast
05-13-2009, 03:10 AM
The way I see it, the Banshee is completely new unit for Terran. It is basically a short range guardian with cloak and better mobility. I've been wishing a unit like this in the Terran air force even before SC2 was announced. The Viking acts like an uncloaked wraith in the air with meatier damage and acts a Goliath in the ground. The Goliath ground attack wasn't something to write home about, even if they did boost its range, so I hope the make the viking's ground attack a bit more interesting. Perhaps a continuous firing chain gun? It attacks continuously like void ray(in packets) and then it has a devourer/Battlecruiser like slow cooldown so the weapon doesn't overheat?

Dauntless
05-13-2009, 03:15 AM
I won't discuss whether the Viking or the Banshee is closest to the Wraith, Valkyrie or the Goliath. All I know is that the two new units got aspects of all of them, and neither is a real "successor" to the other.

They're all different units with similarities and differences.

Aldrius
05-13-2009, 05:10 AM
I won't discuss whether the Viking or the Banshee is closest to the Wraith, Valkyrie or the Goliath. All I know is that the two new units got aspects of all of them, and neither is a real "successor" to the other.

They're all different units with similarities and differences.

Agree with this.

Seems to be the running theme of the Terrans and how they were developed.

They pretty much just took everything not named 'SCV', 'Marine', 'Battlecruiser' or 'Siege Tank' put them all in a big blender, then distributed what worked the best together.

Marauder got the Medic's early game support role with a newly created anti-armored infantry role (something that was desperately needed in SC1 in TvT and TvP). Reaper got the Vulture's attack and proxy-mines, while being an infantry unit. Hellion got the firebat's attack and the vulture's speed, range and mobility. Viking got the Wraith's air to air attack, speed and mobility and the Goliath's ground-to-ground attack, size and durability. Banshee got the Wraith's cloak. Dropship got the medic's healing and infantry-support role. Nighthawk got the Vulture and Siege Tank's ability to control terrain and had that greatly extrapolated. Among other things.

And I like the Viking's ground form. I think it'd be serviced better by being a factory-turned-air unit but in general it's strength is that it's very mobile, armored, and mechanical. And does generally good DPS. But it's defense is it's real strength, it's not vulnerable to Reapers, Hellions, Roaches, Hydralisks (maybe), Banelings, Zealots (maybe), Nullifiers, Marines ('nother maybe) or Ghosts.

Seems like they're mostly useful in mirror matches I'd say. Theoretically speaking.

n00bonicPlague
05-13-2009, 10:59 AM
Woah woah woah -- guys...

...take the stuff about capital ships and vikings and stuff to a new thread or something.



Anyway, the one thing that drove me nuts about the original Swarm Guardian was that the entire body undulated up and down, rather than just part. It was about as annoying as the original Stalker bouncy-walk. I think a great general look and locomotion for the Brood Lord would be that of a sting-ray. Just imagine this gargantuan beast cruising through the air, body perfectly level but with the outer "wings" moving up and down to propel it forward, creating a smooth sine wave.

I think it would look awesome.

Pandonetho
05-13-2009, 12:38 PM
I liked the wormy movement of the old Swarm Guardian, it looked Zerg like, UNLIKE the bouncy WC3 influenced stalker.

I notice it with the tank too a little. Just watch the beginning of the Terran Demo. When the tanks roll in, you see separate parts of the tanks bobbing up and down. While I can live with it, to me personally it feels like that's WC3 influenced - although not necessarily a bad thing, because I can't imagine a tank looking good at all if it was just a solid model moving across the terrain.