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Crazy_Jonny
05-12-2009, 06:10 PM
EDIT - idea is imba, you can ignore if you want.

Dark Pylon
Cost: 200 Minerals
HP: 75/100
Energy: 200 (250 max)

Abilities:
Neutron Field - (150 Innitial Energy) - Creates a field that gathers 1 mineral from each mineral field per 1 or 2 energy. The field would be large enough to capture about half of your mineral fields. The ability doesn't stack.

Rejuvinate - (125 Energy) Completly heals (hp, energy, shield, effects) all units within a small area (almost psi storm sized). Can also target a single building. Dark Pylon loses its own shield.

Create Power Field - (100 Energy) Adds a power field and 8 psi to the Dark Pylon. It acts the same as a normal pylon, but if an ability is casted, this will be disabled, but can be reacivated later. Doesnt drain energy by the way.
(Edit: lets say its not disabled, just for the sake of it being used).

Blink - (Cooldown) It acts the same as the Stalkers Blink. It makes the Blink a more universal ability like cloak is to the terrans, and whats cool is it allows Dark Pylons that you were using previously for Neutron Field to go into combat.

I realise these abilities could be imbalenced, I just want an opinion on the idea, not the numbers or side effects.

EDIT: I edited a few thing. I nerfed Neutron field and rose DP's cost to 200.

ArcherofAiur
05-12-2009, 06:17 PM
Not bad.

Not bad at all. Thoughts people?


It seems like this DP has the potential to be a Mini-Base.


The big problem is that pylon power isnt as good as extra mining or healing. I think we should work on that third ability.

Crazy_Jonny
05-12-2009, 06:21 PM
Not bad.

Not bad at all. Thoughts people?


It seems like this DP has the potential to be a Mini-Base.


The big problem is that pylon power isnt as good as extra mining or healing. I think we should work on that third ability.

Ok, what if I said once you casted the power field, it will never disable UNLESS you blink. And Ill lower its cost to say... 75?

Either that or I leave the cost (maybe raise it), but make it permanent?

ArcherofAiur
05-12-2009, 06:22 PM
How about we make an ability thats as useful as extra minerals or healing?

MattII
05-12-2009, 06:27 PM
Now I know why they call you Crazy, it's because you are. Seriously, none of these ideas are any good, Neuron Field messes around with resource gathering, which isn't good, Rejuvinate is too powerful (energy and effects shouldn't be touched), Power Field is difficult to understand (does it affect blink and other non-energy abilities?), and giving a building Blink is absolutely awful.

Crazy_Jonny
05-12-2009, 06:29 PM
How about we make an ability thats as useful as extra minerals or healing?

Well, I just think it overpowers the dark pylon to just give it a power field off the bat. Creating a powerfield would be really effective if you use it with blink, and decide not to tech to phase prism right away. It makes the building more flexible, it doesnt have to rival the other abilities.


Now I know why they call you Crazy, it's because you are. Seriously, none of these ideas are any good, Neuron Field messes around with resource gathering, which isn't good, Rejuvinate is too powerful (energy and effects shouldn't be touched), Power Field is difficult to understand (does it affect blink and other non-energy abilities?), and giving a building Blink is absolutely awful.


Wow, no one around here actually calls me that (Im actually one of the sensible people) but thanks anyway. First of all, if your completly against the whole idea of extra resource gathering, dont even bother, because I support the idea. The Rejuvination suggestion is ok, this isnt meant to be perfect, just an basic idea. And whats difficult to understand about powerfield? Look, I edited my first post, because Im open minded to the idea my ideas are probably imbalenced, but you make it sound like I did something HORRIBLE.

ArcherofAiur
05-12-2009, 06:31 PM
Now I know why they call you Crazy, it's because you are. Seriously, none of these ideas are any good, Neuron Field messes around with resource gathering, which isn't good, Rejuvinate is too powerful (energy and effects shouldn't be touched), Power Field is difficult to understand (does it affect blink and other non-energy abilities?), and giving a building Blink is absolutely awful.



And you base all that on....what?



A) Spells that "mess" around with resource gathering are ok (see MULE)
B) Spells that "touch" energy are not too powerful (see Argus Link)



Well, I just think it overpowers the dark pylon to just give it a power field off the bat. Creating a powerfield would be really effective if you use it with blink, and decide not to tech to phase prism right away. It makes the building more flexible, it doesnt have to rival the other abilities.


Powerfields arnt that powerful. They allow you to Warp-In units and warp-in buildings. Niether is game breaking. And whats a Pylon without a Pylon field? The blink ability on a pylon does overlap with the Warp-Prism so I see your point there.

MattII
05-12-2009, 06:57 PM
First of all, if your completly against the whole idea of extra resource gathering, dont even bother, because I support the idea.

A) Spells that "mess" around with resource gathering are ok (see MULE)

Okay, let me put it like this, Proton Charge is okay (I don't like it, but I can live with it), because it only modifies the Probes, and Mules are okay because they're units. What I have problem with is the DP itself gathering resources. At this, and not to seem like just a naysayer, I'll put forward my own idea, and that is that the DP warps the minerals selected Probes have collected straight back to the Nexus, leaving the Probes free to collect another load. Energy costs would be 2 ep/load (I've yet to decide if I'd raise it for golden patches).


B) Spells that "touch" energy are not too powerful (see Argus Link)

Argus Link transfers energy from the DP to the target, it's not actually a spell (no fixed cost), whereas Rejuvinate is, which essentially means that it could create out more energy than it costs.


And whats difficult to understand about powerfield?

Because saying "if an ability is casted, this will be disabled" isn't enough of an explanation. Does it affect Blink, Cloak (Ghost's, Banshee's, not DT's) or Charge, what about Stim Pack or Hardened Shields?


Look, I edited my first post, because Im open minded to the idea my ideas are probably imbalenced, but you make it sound like I did something HORRIBLE.

Personally I think some of the abilities 'are' fairly horrific, although that might not be the concensus.

Crazy_Jonny
05-12-2009, 07:13 PM
Okay, let me put it like this, Proton Charge is okay (I don't like it, but I can live with it), because it only modifies the Probes, and Mules are okay because they're units. What I have problem with is the DP itself gathering resources. At this, and not to seem like just a naysayer, I'll put forward my own idea, and that is that the DP warps the minerals selected Probes have collected straight back to the Nexus, leaving the Probes free to collect another load. Energy costs would be 2 ep/load (I've yet to decide if I'd raise it for golden patches).


I thought this would be cool for racial deversity. What I do feel strongly about is adding blink to the DP. Heck, youre already able to cloak buildings so why not make a stretch. As far as your idea, well, its not bad, but really doesnt differ alot from Photon charge.


Because saying "if an ability is casted, this will be disabled" isn't enough of an explanation. Does it affect Blink, Cloak (Ghost's, Banshee's, not DT's) or Charge, what about Stim Pack or Hardened Shields?

Well, I meant any ability at all. But really, I'll admit it was a bit unessesary.

MattII
05-12-2009, 07:20 PM
As far as your idea, well, its not bad, but really doesnt differ alot from Photon charge.

Proton Charge increases the resources the Probes carry, so no, my idea isn't anything like that, if fact it's closer to yours, except that in my idea it's the Probes mining whereas in your it's the DP itself.


Well, I meant any ability at all. But really, I'll admit it was a bit unessesary.

So what, Stim Packs are going to be disabled then? The same for D8?

PsiWarp
05-12-2009, 07:31 PM
I like the idea of the Dark Pylon becoming the Protoss' second defense. An efficient and powerful Photon Cannon, and an ability-powered Dark Pylon :)

Perhaps a structure oriented active ability? The Dark Pylon can infuse another Pylon with Void Energy, temporarily granting a cloaking field to said Pylon that affects units and buildings (aside from Nexus, Dark Pylon and other Pylons).

You don't need a Dark Pylon or Mothership to go for Cloaking Proxy Pylon, very useful for early game raid discouragement (cloaked Photon Cannons... scary thought!)


-Psi

pure.Wasted
05-12-2009, 08:16 PM
Before I second Matt, I'm gonna commend you on the thought you put into this suggestion Jonny. The ideas might not make it into the game but at least they get us thinking and this point in the game, that's what we need. :) Onto the nitty-gritty...


Neutron Field is, potentially, horrendously imbalanced. When your buildings (that don't only cost food, but PROVIDE IT!) start gathering your minerals for you, we're in big trouble. The worst thing about it is that unlike Matt's suggestion, the huge mana cost means you can only cast it every once in a while.

Why is that bad? Because it's a lot easier to gain 100% of the effect of an ability on long cooldown than it is for an ability whose cooldown passes every few seconds. The whole point of these mechanics is to add macro to the game. An ability that you have to activate once every two minutes (because of its high energy cost, required for its insanely powerful effect) does not add sufficient macro. Abilities with smaller effects and smaller costs -- ones you have to recast often -- are much better... but those run the risk of becoming tedious. Hey, no one said that coming up with excellent suggestions was a piece of cake! :)

If you still don't see the problem, just think about it this way. Dark Pylons are essentially expansions (especially thanks to Blink) that are hidden away in the safety of your own base. Since resource gathering is one of the key concepts of the game, you will always want to build more and more of these things, and once you run out of resources in one base, just blink 'em all over to an expansion and set up shop there. It promotes turtling and, if successful, gives you a huge economical boost over your opponent. These are not things we want to add into the game.

Rejuvenate... eh. I don't like the idea of the Dark Pylon having a bunch of completely random abilities. They need to have some sort of theme and feel as though they belong on the same building. Here you have resource gathering + food supply + blink + healing, and it seems about as random as it gets.

Create Power Field, once I figured out what you meant, actually sounds like the most interesting idea of the bunch. Resource boost vs. supply could be an interesting trade-off... but I have trouble coming up with ways to take advantage of it. We come back to the dilemma of "building more is always a good idea" and the player starts to think, "should I have more units, or have a DP for money and healing the units I have." That sort of micro-intensive mentality, at the cost of numbers in units, can really turn this in the direction of WC3... and again, that is not something that we want.

ArcherofAiur
05-12-2009, 08:31 PM
Neutron Field is, potentially, horrendously imbalanced. When your buildings (that don't only cost food, but PROVIDE IT!) start gathering your minerals for you, we're in big trouble.


Actually that sounds like cool idea. Why not have a resource gathering method that doesnt cause supply? You could structure it so that you can eventually replace all your workers with the upgraded gathering method and use the freed up supply for combat units.






Why is that bad? Because it's a lot easier to gain 100% of the effect of an ability on long cooldown than it is for an ability whose cooldown passes every few seconds. The whole point of these mechanics is to add macro to the game. An ability that you have to activate once every two minutes (because of its high energy cost, required for its insanely powerful effect) does not add sufficient macro.


But if there are multiple DPs that you activate every 2 min then you are really activating a DP every couple seconds depending upon how many DPs you have.



Abilities with smaller effects and smaller costs -- ones you have to recast often -- are much better...
.
I dissagree. I think workers should be the small cost/small effect gathering method. Since Macro mechanics require you to camera shift back to your base they should be more powerful. This way the player wont get angry they are taken away from the battle.




gives you a huge economical boost over your opponent. These are not things we want to add into the game.



I thought huge economical boosts were what we did want to add to the game.

pure.Wasted
05-12-2009, 08:55 PM
Actually that sounds like cool idea. Why not have a resource gathering method that doesnt cause supply? You could structure it so that you can eventually replace all your workers with the upgraded gathering method and use the freed up supply for combat units.

Because it completely changes the Protoss' resource gathering mechanic in relation to the other races... and the benefit is not nearly so great as for the ridiculous balancing work that would necessarily ensue to be worth it. There's plenty of similarly "meh" economy-related ideas that wouldn't require Blizz to overhaul Protoss economy and unit/building/upgrade costs, as well as unit supply costs (given that everyone would suddenly have an overabundance of Pylons and a notable lack of workers).


But if there are multiple DPs that you activate every 2 min then you are really activating a DP every couple seconds depending upon how many DPs you have.

No, it's not the same, because if you throw all your DPs into the same hotkey, all you have to do is go back to your base and go DPHK+ability+minerals, rinse repeat for every Pylon that you have. Given that not even pro players are perfect, chances are that the Pylon cooldown rates would quickly become uniform so that going back every 10 seconds as the cooldown evens out wouldn't even be possible, let alone necessary.


I thought huge economical boosts were what we did want to add to the game.

Not quite. What we want to do is add macro. Whether we do that through economical boosts or through some other means is completely up in the air. The Zerg have received no economical boosts (apart from Larvae, but the link between them and your economy is far too indirect compared to the T/P mechanics) and they're doing just fine.

In fact, I don't like the idea of adding economy benefits. I think that given this game's focus around the economy, they will always be too powerful. Getting more money is always a good thing, so if you have a safe way to go about it (turtle> DP), a player is going to choose to do that until his economy advantage is so sizable he can 1+a+2+a to win.

ArcherofAiur
05-12-2009, 09:05 PM
Because it completely changes the Protoss' resource gathering mechanic in relation to the other races... and the benefit is not nearly so great as for the ridiculous balancing work that would necessarily ensue to be worth it. There's plenty of similarly "meh" economy-related ideas that wouldn't require Blizz to overhaul Protoss economy and unit/building/upgrade costs, as well as unit supply costs (given that everyone would suddenly have an overabundance of Pylons and a notable lack of workers).


Dont worry about balancing. Thats Dustin's job.




No, it's not the same, because if you throw all your DPs into the same hotkey, all you have to do is go back to your base and go DPHK+ability+minerals, rinse repeat for every Pylon that you have. Given that not even pro players are perfect, chances are that the Pylon cooldown rates would quickly become uniform so that going back every 10 seconds as the cooldown evens out wouldn't even be possible, let alone necessary.


Maybe. I think we would have to playtest the mechanic to see which one of us is right.




Not quite. What we want to do is add macro. Whether we do that through economical boosts or through some other means is completely up in the air. The Zerg have received no economical boosts (apart from Larvae, but the link between them and your economy is far too indirect compared to the T/P mechanics) and they're doing just fine.


The Macro system in SC1 gives resource and production advantage. Extra Larvae is an example of production advantage. Resource advantage is definatly a valid option for recreating the SC1 macro system.





Getting more money is always a good thing, so if you have a safe way to go about it (turtle> DP), a player is going to choose to do that until his economy advantage is so sizable he can 1+a+2+a to win.

In SC1 building workers was always a good thing but that doesnt mean that everyone always did it.

Eligor
05-12-2009, 09:30 PM
In SC1 building workers was always a good thing but that doesnt mean that everyone always did it.


Eh? Someone played the game WITHOUT building workers? I'd like to see that (and no, SCV rushes don't count). :p


But seriously, I have to say that I agree with pure.Wasted in pretty much everything he said about the suggestion. The thing with macro mechanics is (in my opinion) that they shouldn't just reward a player who comes constantly back to his base to perform an nth number of clicks, but they should reward a player who comes back to his base to perform an nth number of clicks and knows what he's doing. The actions tied to the macro mechanic must be meaningful, there should be either an element of timing involved or some sort of trade-off, a disadvantage that goes with the benefit and balances it out (and that can make the use of the macro mechanic at the wrong moment or for the wrong reason detrimental to the player).

deadpool
05-14-2009, 01:46 PM
Sorry if this is a noob idea or thread hijacking, but here are some thoughts I had reading this thread:

The dark pylon could be warped in to a location similar to Protoss units (except only by Dark Protoss units like stalkers or DTs) and boosts both worker movement speed and the quality of what the resources that the workers are taking to their base. Let’s say for the sake of argument that movement speed is increased by 25% and that resource output under the effect is increased by 30%. Let’s say that the dark pylon returns to the oldest Nexus and deactivates when an energy reserve runs out. However, the dark pylon can be used on any player’s units in the game. If a Protoss player uses a dark pylon on any player other than herself or an allied player, she gets a 150% match of whatever is collected under the dark pylon’s influence because its warped away or whatever fluff works.

I’m pretty much a scrub player with no skill to speak of, but I think if I were in this position such a mechanic would give me some pretty serious options to think over. If I could get a DT or stalker to my enemy’s supply line, is it more advantageous to get more minerals for myself at the cost of giving them a boost as well, or just attack the supply line altogether? Similarly, if I were to suddenly see a dark pylon appear, do I want to take advantage of it or deny the owner the gains through either destroying the pylon or moving my workers away? Do I want to take advantage to a point and then stop all my workers? Do I want to bolster my defenses or leave an invitation for the Protoss player to come back?

Pandonetho
05-14-2009, 02:13 PM
Disclaimer: I didn't read the thread.

With that said, I have one thing to comment on that caught my eye.


In SC1 building workers was always a good thing but that doesnt mean that everyone always did it.

It's called being a noob. If you aren't 24/7 building workers, you're losing. Simple as that.

ArcherofAiur
05-14-2009, 04:03 PM
Disclaimer: I didn't read the thread.

With that said, I have one thing to comment on that caught my eye.



It's called being a noob. If you aren't 24/7 building workers, you're losing. Simple as that.


Even pros have trouble keeping up perfect production in the late game.

Crazy_Jonny
05-14-2009, 05:47 PM
I’m pretty much a scrub player with no skill to speak of, but I think if I were in this position such a mechanic would give me some pretty serious options to think over. If I could get a DT or stalker to my enemy’s supply line, is it more advantageous to get more minerals for myself at the cost of giving them a boost as well, or just attack the supply line altogether? Similarly, if I were to suddenly see a dark pylon appear, do I want to take advantage of it or deny the owner the gains through either destroying the pylon or moving my workers away? Do I want to take advantage to a point and then stop all my workers? Do I want to bolster my defenses or leave an invitation for the Protoss player to come back?

This is kinda what I was going for, even tho your idea is a bit different. When I made my whole idea on the DP, I really wanted to focus on making it harder to make decisions. I figured giving the DP blink would be a good way to do that, that way your not just building 1 DP for X, and another for Y. The thing that made my idea imbalenced was my neutron field idea. I really wouldnt mind if Proton Change stayed.

My thread from the start shouldve just been: give blink to the Dark Pylon. I think that wouldve saved me trouble.

ArcherofAiur
05-14-2009, 06:31 PM
My thread from the start shouldve just been: give blink to the Dark Pylon. I think that wouldve saved me trouble.

So my big qualm with that (and not that it isnt a cool idea) but it completly overlaps with the warp prism.

Eligor
05-14-2009, 08:42 PM
Further up in this thread I said that in my opinion a macro mechanic must have a drawback attached to it. So here's a thought, what if we keep Proton Charge but make it decommission each and every static defence the player has for the duration it's on (or even more drastic, make production of units impossible during Proton Charge's duration(tho' this may be too much)). The lore explanation for all this would be that the Proton Charge causes a ripple-like disturbance in the psi-matrix which prevents Protoss technology from working right. Of course there'll have to be equally significant drawbacks to Zerg and Terran macro mechanics.

ArcherofAiur
05-14-2009, 09:08 PM
Further up in this thread I said that in my opinion a macro mechanic must have a drawback attached to it.


I dont really understand why people keep suggesting giving macro drawbacks. It would be like putting Psi Storm in the game and saying "Oh wait people are going to use this allot. We should make it decrease supply whenever they cast it. That way they have to make a choice."

mr. peasant
05-14-2009, 09:19 PM
Well, if there aren't any drawbacks, then there wouldn't be a choice, would there? People would simply use it as frequently as possible. By having a drawback, it forces the player to weigh the cost-balance before using it. As far as why creating a situation where the player has to choose, it is the major determinant differentiating intelligent macro mechanics and sheer busywork.

Crazy_Jonny
05-14-2009, 09:28 PM
I dont really understand why people keep suggesting giving macro drawbacks. It would be like putting Psi Storm in the game and saying "Oh wait people are going to use this allot. We should make it decrease supply whenever they cast it. That way they have to make a choice."

Because the beiggest complaint about the current mechanics are that its a mindless apm sinks. If you give the player a choice, youre adding strategy to the decission. If we just added a new mechanic onto a building, everyone would always choose it, because more resources is better. If you add a drawback, you have to decide when the right time to use it is.

EDIT: yeah, what Mr. Preasant said...sry was a bit late.


So my big qualm with that (and not that it isnt a cool idea) but it completly overlaps with the warp prism.



A warping building has its own purpose. The whole point of having it is so DPs you were using for resources before can now be used in combat. I would be willing to give up its powerfield, I always thought it overlapped with the pylon anyway. Either that or make it an ability, like I suggested before.

Eligor
05-14-2009, 09:34 PM
I dont really understand why people keep suggesting giving macro drawbacks. It would be like putting Psi Storm in the game and saying "Oh wait people are going to use this allot. We should make it decrease supply whenever they cast it. That way they have to make a choice."

mr.Peasant pretty much answered this already, but I have to add, Psi-Storm is a bad example. The Storm is a combat ability, its successful use depends on timing, positioning and taking into account the actions of the opponent, it already has "drawbacks", a player's use of it already involves meaningful decisions. Proton Charge on the other hand has no such properties, you'd want to use it as much as possible, which is pretty much meaninglessly spamming clicks without any rhyme or reason. My suggestion brings in a trade-off that makes a player more vulnerable when Proton Charge is engaged, this means that to use a Proton Charge you'll have to be pretty sure that you're not going to be attacked anytime soon or have a sizeable force around which would compensate for the lack of static defense. Such a mechanic would encourage scouting and unit production, and won't be as viable if you don't have the upper hand in the game or don't keep enough pressure on the enemy. In short, it encourages the player to do more than just repeatedly click a single button.

MattII
05-14-2009, 09:38 PM
Was going to say about Psi-storm, but Eligor beat me too it. The other problem with Proton Charge is that it has no 'passive drawbacks' or more properly, it's going to get spammed because the other abilities are even more situational than it is (Null Shield is only effective when you have an expensive unit you want to keep secret, and Argus Link is only useful when you have a useful, low-energy spellcaster around).

ArcherofAiur
05-14-2009, 09:48 PM
Can you name other SC abilities have drawbacks of the kind you guys are talking about?

Eligor
05-14-2009, 09:55 PM
Can you name other SC abilities have drawbacks of the kind you guys are talking about?

Pretty much every ability against which your opponent can do something and which requires some forethought and/or skill to execute (which is really almost ev'ry ability in SC and SC 2). Macro mechanics are a very new (and exceptional) element in the game.

ArcherofAiur
05-14-2009, 09:57 PM
Like?


The one I can think of is the siege-tank which loses mobility for fire power.

Eligor
05-14-2009, 10:09 PM
Like?


The one I can think of is the siege-tank which loses mobility for fire power.


Any ability that can be dodged, prevented by the killing (or otherwise incapacitating) of the channeling unit, can hurt your own units (and et caetera) already has "drawbacks" (notice the quotation marks, they don't necessarily have to be drawbacks per se, it's just that the effectiveness of an ability should depend on more than a player's pressing of a corresponding button).

ArcherofAiur
05-14-2009, 10:15 PM
Any ability that can be dodged, prevented by the killing (or otherwise incapacitating) of the channeling unit, can hurt your own units (and et caetera) already has "drawbacks" (notice the quotation marks, they don't necessarily have to be drawbacks per se, it's just that the effectiveness of an ability should depend on more than a player's pressing of a corresponding button).

See but those are minor drawbacks. I could make the arguement that having to pay 50 extra minerals for a DP is a "drawback". What your proposing as far as taking away pylon power or supply are major drawbacks.

Eligor
05-14-2009, 10:20 PM
See but those are minor drawbacks. I could make the arguement that having to pay 50 extra minerals for a DP is a "drawback". What your proposing as far as taking away pylon power or supply are major drawbacks.

Major drawbacks for the VERY major benefit of faster resource acquirement. And I didn't suggest that, I suggested either the decommission of all Photon Cannons or perhaps the halting of all production (the latter is indeed rather extreme, perhaps what it can do instead is prevent the Warp In mechanic from working).

P.S.: Also I wouldn't call the "drawbacks" of most abilities such as Psi-Storm minor. You can screw up in a pretty major way by accidentally casting it on your own units. :D

P.P.S. Another important point is that the severity of the drawbacks suggested by me is very situational, it brings in an element of timing into the use of macro mechanics.

SpiderBrigade
05-14-2009, 10:49 PM
This whole "drawbacks" conversation is misguided. Should macro mechanics involve choices, hard decisions? Yes! So should abilities. Blizzard doesn't do that by tacking on bad effects to each ability - they do it by adding competing abilities. Templar now have a damn healing spell. So the drawback to Psi Storm is you're not using that energy to cast Plasma Surge or whatever it's called.

Similarly, the drawback of any macro ability on the DP should be not getting to use the other abilities it has, not some negative "drawback."

ArcherofAiur
05-14-2009, 10:57 PM
This whole "drawbacks" conversation is misguided. Should macro mechanics involve choices, hard decisions? Yes! So should abilities. Blizzard doesn't do that by tacking on bad effects to each ability - they do it by adding competing abilities. Templar now have a damn healing spell. So the drawback to Psi Storm is you're not using that energy to cast Plasma Surge or whatever it's called.

Similarly, the drawback of any macro ability on the DP should be not getting to use the other abilities it has, not some negative "drawback."


Completly agree. Dont add something bad onto the mechanic. Add something fun to compete.

Eligor
05-15-2009, 12:42 AM
This whole "drawbacks" conversation is misguided. Should macro mechanics involve choices, hard decisions? Yes! So should abilities. Blizzard doesn't do that by tacking on bad effects to each ability - they do it by adding competing abilities. Templar now have a damn healing spell. So the drawback to Psi Storm is you're not using that energy to cast Plasma Surge or whatever it's called.

Similarly, the drawback of any macro ability on the DP should be not getting to use the other abilities it has, not some negative "drawback."

Yes, but in the case of Proton Charge (or any resource acquirement enhancing mechanic for that matter) there is not much you can offer by way of competition (considering the overall benefits of better economy would make most other effects trivial by comparison), I'm not necessarily saying there is no possible competition, but such an ability doesn't easily present itself to my mind (it will definitely have to be a very creative solution indeed, to be able to compete with Proton Charge the way it is right now). There are abilities and mechanics so powerful they must have a negative effect as well to be balanced (such as for example the Dark Archon's Mind Control in Brood War, not only is it a rather expensive ability energy-wise, but the Dark Archon loses all its shields upon using it, the Phoenix's helpless state after using Overload is another example).

ArcherofAiur
05-15-2009, 04:08 PM
Yes, but in the case of Proton Charge (or any resource acquirement enhancing mechanic for that matter) there is not much you can offer by way of competition (considering the overall benefits of better economy would make most other effects trivial by comparison), I'm not necessarily saying there is no possible competition, but such an ability doesn't easily present itself to my mind


Dont worry Im on it :P


Seriously though lets give these abilities a chance before deciding to nerfy them. We can think of other cool things to compete with extra minerals (like say extra gas!).

CrystalV3
05-15-2009, 05:02 PM
Seriously though lets give these abilities a chance before deciding to nerfy them. We can think of other cool things to compete with extra minerals (like say extra gas!).

How is extra gas any cooler than extra minerals? It's just the same boring mechanic slapped onto another resource.

A better solution would be to find a more interesting way of increasing the mining as opposed to a cooldown based ability. Even the MULE mechanic allows for more possibilities by creating units. You can use MULEs to draw enemy fire or send on quick scouting runs, and your opponent can just sneak behind them with raiders and kill them. The Zerg mechanic increases the possibilities of all production, allowing you to make more units which could become workers to boost your economy. Proton charge right now truly is just an APM sink, since the other abilities have no use in a mining field.

Perhaps they could boost production speed of the buildings around them? Or perhaps siphon minerals from a mineral field to regain energy? The options are virtually limitless, so why settle for something as dull as going back to the base every 2 minutes for a task people would rather automate?

ArcherofAiur
05-15-2009, 05:43 PM
How is extra gas any cooler than extra minerals? It's just the same boring mechanic slapped onto another resource.
Extra gas is not a mechanic. Extra gas is the result of a mechanic. By virtue of itself it cannot be boring. But hey look someones going to argue with this.





A better solution would be to find a more interesting way of increasing the mining as opposed to a cooldown based ability.


I like where your heads at. Ideas people?

Eligor
05-16-2009, 01:47 AM
Dont worry Im on it :P


Seriously though lets give these abilities a chance before deciding to nerfy them. We can think of other cool things to compete with extra minerals (like say extra gas!).

Actually, this is something I thought about too. Proton Charge upsetting the balance between Mineral and Gas acquisition. Temporarily leading to a great influx of gas and a dearth of minerals. Not sure how much merit is there to this mechanic, but it's definitely better than what (as far as we know) Blizzard has now.