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Perfecttear
05-11-2009, 01:07 PM
It always buged me in stracraft that you couldn't upgrade the attack of the defensive buildings, and make them stronger lategame.So i thought how could they be stronger lategame, and come with a fun concept for each rece :

- Mobile fotress
Mobile fotress is an upgrade for the bunker, that wouild change the animation of the bunker
and increase the capacity of the bunker by 4 to 8 , it would also increase the bunkers hp by
200 points to a total of 600. The Mobile fotress upgrade would cost 75 minerals and
would require that you have atleast one planetary fortress.



- Secondary psionic core
Secondary psionic core is an upgrade for the photon cannon , that would increase the fireing
rate of the cannon, it would fire 2 shots instead of 1, and increase the shield of the photon
cannon by 125, while the hp would remain the same. The Secondary psionic core upgrade
would cost 125 minerals and require the Null Circuit building.


- Broodlings Nest
Broodlings Nest is a new type of a defensive building for the zerg, that works somewhat like
the reaver. The Broodlings Nest constantly produces broodlings and stores them inside, it
doesn't have a direct damage attack, but attacks invaders by releasing all of the broodlings
at once to engage the enemy .It produces one broodling every few seconds and can
store up to 20 of them.The Broodlings Nest building would cost 250 minerals and would
require the infestor pit building.
(wiki: Broodlings are small but vicious and upon hatching, will
attack any nearby enemies. In the event that there are no nearby enemies, they await for
a command from a higher strain. Their effectiveness is primarily compromised, however, by
their very limited lifespans.The broodling is a timed creature thas is spawned when the
zerg player loses a building or produced by the brood lord)



Suggest
Flame
Discuss

Eligor
05-11-2009, 01:18 PM
Interesting. I think that in case of implementation such upgrades should work on an individual building basis (like Battlecruiser upgrades). Why "mobile fortress" though, does it move?

Perfecttear
05-11-2009, 01:35 PM
The name mobile fortress is just an indication that it is linked with planetary fortress, and it has a more vider use, couldn't think of a better name.

Nicol Bolas
05-11-2009, 01:50 PM
It always buged me in stracraft that you couldn't upgrade the attack of the defensive buildings, and make them stronger lategame.

That's part of what makes it StarCraft. Static defenses are specifically de-emphasized mid-to-late game. Otherwise, you make turtling strategies too powerful, and the game becomes what TvT gets to when it's not a DropShip match.

DemolitionSquid
05-11-2009, 01:51 PM
I'm not opposed to defense upgrades, but I feel they should act as specializations, not just power enhancements. Like, if the Bunker could upgrade to a static siege platform.

Zabimaru
05-11-2009, 02:33 PM
Irritatingly my brother keeps going on about flying bunkers... this thread reminded me off just one of his many ideas...

unentschieden
05-11-2009, 03:07 PM
I'm not opposed to defense upgrades, but I feel they should act as specializations, not just power enhancements. Like, if the Bunker could upgrade to a static siege platform.

Well I think itīs already going in that direction. Terrans can Salvage their Defenses once they become obsolete and the Zerg Defenses arenīt static (but might be a bother to move)

This isnīt a enhancement of the Turtle shell, so to speak but the possibility to rederect defensive mesures for offense.

Instead of giving incentives to hide even more in your base advanced defenses should give the ability to take better control of the map. Silly aproach: Give Terran buildings Bunker "slots" so that they are easier defendable if moved up to the front.

DemolitionSquid
05-11-2009, 03:08 PM
I wish Photon Cannons had been given something new :(

Kacaier
05-11-2009, 03:10 PM
I wish Photon Cannons had been given something new :(I still like the old idea of allowing photon canons the ability to phase out, allowing units to pass through. Though, it is largely similar to the supply depot. It's useful to me because you can then build a choke defense without needing to worry about having a gap for your troops.

PsiWarp
05-11-2009, 03:15 PM
Lol so basically the Photon Cannon gains "Dual Core" technology. Faster processing power ftw :P

Maybe it gives splash to the Photon Cannon, to deal with later game unit armies?


-Psi

SpiderBrigade
05-11-2009, 03:21 PM
Unnecessary, I'd say. Actually, everybody except Zerg can currently upgrade their defenses: Terran Bunkers benefit from infantry attack upgrades, and Protoss Cannons get shield upgrades.

And, static defenses seem to be about as powerful as they are supposed to be. They will help you defend but in a high-level game you will want to spend your resources eleswhere. Giving upgrades to make defenses competitive in all games will change the focus away from attack, which is bad.

Zabimaru
05-11-2009, 03:32 PM
I wish Photon Cannons had been given something new

I too, agree. Couldn’t they warp around pylon power at one point...? It’d be cool to warp them for base to expiation etc. But maybe too similar to Zerg now.

Extranjero
05-11-2009, 04:09 PM
I like the image of bringing 6-8 marines into an otherwise cleared zerg base only to have 20 broodlings erupt from a broodling nest and surround and kill them. It seems very zerg-ish to me.

Perfecttear
05-11-2009, 04:17 PM
Mobile fortrees is no different than just having 2 bunkers. Upgraded bunker costs 175, 2 bunkers cost 200, the only difference is the ugrade is 25 minerals cheapers since it has only 600 hp compared to 800 hp of 2 bunkers, and you save some space.( the same goes for the photton cannon, same damage as 2 cannons , 2 cannons cost 300 minerals, upgraded canon cost 275, 25 minerals cheaper and has less 125 health.)

MattII
05-11-2009, 04:19 PM
I too, agree. Couldn’t they warp around pylon power at one point...? It’d be cool to warp them for base to expiation etc. But maybe too similar to Zerg now.

Those were Phase Cannons. I always thought the actual moving around was a bit much, so I suggested having them phase from spot to spot (1-2 second pack/unpack time at each end, plus 1 second/20 spaces to phase, and can only be phased between Pylons/Prisms).

SpiderBrigade's probably right about defences being where they should be, but still, I can't help wanting the idea as well.

Perfecttear
05-11-2009, 04:27 PM
Think abou it , this upgrades are tier 3. Upgraded cannons cost 25 minerals less, (275min upgraded cannon, instead of 300min 2 cannons), have the same damage , but they have 1\3 less health that you would have if you would build 2, so it balances out.

electricmole
05-11-2009, 04:46 PM
great idea. and i just ont get it why starcraft 2 has less innovation on base defenses. Even walking sunkens are not enough.

i think one among the races shoulg get a single powerful base defense like the terran ion canon.

the other one, should get a simple upgrade, like the phase canon can be upgraded it will then look different and attacks multiple enemies.

I like your baneling nest idea, very zergy and different.

RainbowToeSocks
05-11-2009, 04:55 PM
Base defenses should be the way they are. There doesn't need to be anything special. When are they used? for detection and against rushes. They shouldn't be very useful late game, just as support. Look at pros play, they only build D early game to help prevent rushes or for Detection early on. After the first five minutes defenses are rarely built.

They need to be simple, as they are.

Perfecttear
05-11-2009, 05:02 PM
- Mobile fotress
Mobile fotress is an upgrade for the bunker, that wouild change the animation of the bunker
and increase the capacity of the bunker by 4 to 8 , it would also increase the bunkers hp by
200 points to a total of 600. The Mobile fotress upgrade would cost 75 minerals and
would require that you have atleast one planetary fortress.



- Secondary psionic core
Secondary psionic core is an upgrade for the photon cannon , that would increase the fireing
rate of the cannon, it would fire 2 shots instead of 1, and increase the shield of the photon
cannon by 125, while the hp would remain the same. The Secondary psionic core upgrade
would cost 125 minerals and require the Null Circuit building.











......................... 2 cannons .................. secondary core upgraded cannon

cost.....................150min plus 150 min ...................150min plus 125min

damage................ 20x2 ...................................... 20x2

hp........................ 250hp 250shield........................125hp 250shield







.......................... 2 bunkers...........................fortress(upgrade d bunker)

cost.....................100min plus 100 min ...................100min plus 75min

slots.......................8 .......................................... 8

hp........................800..................... ....................600



In simple terms, these upgrades just decrease the amount of size that your defences take, but in return have 1\3 less health. And as i said they are tier 3 upgrades.

Perfecttear
05-11-2009, 05:08 PM
Base defenses should be the way they are. There doesn't need to be anything special. When are they used? for detection and against rushes. They shouldn't be very useful late game, just as support. Look at pros play, they only build D early game to help prevent rushes or for Detection early on. After the first five minutes defenses are rarely built.


YOu just answered yourself why defenses should be changed in sc2.

The_Blade
05-11-2009, 05:20 PM
Blizzard confirmed the turret will get range and firepower ups, the cannons will probably will, as for zerg im expecting more hp points and fastermovement or firerate.

Still blizzard only confirmed turrets status. (bunkers currenly got an 8 slots ups on camping)

MattII
05-11-2009, 05:22 PM
My views on how defences could be updated late game.

Terran:
Bunker upgrades
-Strength upgrade (global) Increases hp by 100 hp and armour by 3 .
-Size upgrade (individual) Provides +2 slots in the Bunker.

Missile Turret upgrades
-Range upgrade (global) Increases range by 1.
-RoF upgrade (individual) Increases RoF by 33%.

New Building - Ibiks Turret
-Cost 100/100 min/gas
-200 hp
-20 damage (splash) G
-6 range


Protoss:
Photon Cannon upgrades
-Shield upgrade (global) increases shields by 50-75.
-RoF upgrade (individual) increases RoF by 50%

New Building - Phase/Warp Cannon
-Cost 150/50 min/gas
-100/100 hp/shields
-20 damage G/A
-7 range
It would takes 2 seconds or so to 'pack', 1 second per 20 spaces or so to actually phase/warp, and 2 seconds or so to 'unpack' again. It would only be able to phase/warp between power zones (Pylons or deployed Prisms).

New Building - Refuge
-Cost 150/250 min/gas
-100 hp, 250 shields
The shield covers an area protecting ground units (except Colossus obviously) inside from AtG and GtG attack orginating beyond the edge of the shield. Of course, with the shield extended building itself hasn't got shields. I also thought about this being a Dark Pylon ability that would cost it it's power zone while using it, but the Dark Pylon only has 100 sp, which isn't really enough.


Zerg:
Spine Crawler upgrades/changes
-(change) loses ability to regenerate while mobile, rather than losing hp.
-Attack upgrade (global) can use attack while mobile, but range is limited to 3.
-Regeneration upgrade (global, with Spore Crawler) allows half-speed regeneration while mobile, double speed while planted.

Spore Crawler upgrades/changes
-(change) loses ability to regenerate while mobile, rather than losing hp.
-Attack upgrade (global) can use attack while mobile, but range is limited to 3.
-Regeneration upgrade (global, with Spore Crawler) allows half-speed regeneration while mobile, double speed while planted.

New building - Broodling Nest
-Cost 100/50 min/gas (produced by queen)
-150 hp (permanently burrowed)
It would produces/hold 5 Broodlings, and because Broodlings have a limited lifespan it would reset the Broodlings' lifetimers every time they return.
Morphs/Upgrades
-(morph) holds 10 Broodlings
-(upgrade) produces Broodlings twice as fast


Thank you Perfecttear for your imagination in coming up with some of the ideas I've used here.



Blizzard confirmed the turret will get range and firepower ups, the cannons will probably will, as for zerg im expecting more hp points and fastermovement or firerate.

Where did you hear that?


Still blizzard only confirmed turrets status. (bunkers currenly got an 8 slots ups on camping)

Last time I checked it was 6 slots, not 8

Perfecttear
05-11-2009, 05:24 PM
In order that sc2 becomes a better game than sc1 , defenseses must have a greater tacktical role.

Nicol Bolas
05-11-2009, 05:28 PM
Blizzard confirmed the turret will get range and firepower ups

Where?


In order that sc2 becomes a better game than sc1 , defenseses must have a greater tacktical role.

Why?

StarCraft has never been about static defenses. Indeed, static defenses are an anathema to StarCraft-style play: fast moving, dynamic, quick and brutal, etc.

RainbowToeSocks
05-11-2009, 05:31 PM
YOu just answered yourself why defenses should be changed in sc2.

Not really, I was saying they arent useful late game which is GOOD. i declare no change should be made to them

0neder
05-11-2009, 05:59 PM
Just stop, man. If you were a game designer, it would be so messy and complicated, noone would want to play it.

Perfecttear
05-11-2009, 06:01 PM
Not really, I was saying they arent useful late game which is GOOD. i declare no change should be made to them

Why is defenses being useless a good thing? In my opinion sc1 lacks in that ,compared to newer rts games.
And if you read my suggestion it improves the defenses by just a litlle, you sacrifice hp for space, and at tier 3.

edit:
Just stop, man. If you were a game designer, it would be so messy and complicated, noone would want to play it. I probaly went to deep into this, it's just a fun suggestion and nothing more. I just love debating people. :)

RainbowToeSocks
05-11-2009, 06:07 PM
Why is defenses being useless a good thing? In my opinion sc1 lacks in that ,compared to newer rts games.
And if you read my suggestion it improves the defenses by just a litlle, you sacrifice hp for space, and at tier 3.

Useful defenses promote turtling and just holding off while the enemy wastes units and resources away. Starcraft is about the units and how to effectively use them. and I didnt really like the suggestions :p but thats just me

and in my opinion starcraft has the perfect defense structures =P

Perfecttear
05-11-2009, 06:13 PM
But i love turtling:D It's my favorite tacktic :p

RainbowToeSocks
05-11-2009, 06:21 PM
But i love turtling:D It's my favorite tacktic :p

its for people who cant play or are high/drunk :p

The_Blade
05-11-2009, 06:23 PM
I took the information from a resent fansite QA probably Team Liquids.

For balance and starcraft's sake...
First
the advance defence must not be a different building that does the same but just with a mayor fire power.

Second
It must not involve making a base defendable at late game.

Third
As many people have said before starcraft is not a static base game. It's something more sofisticated were u use units to defend your base and kill enemies.

Still liked the broods defencive. but it would have to be as good and team up with the sunken

PsiWarp
05-11-2009, 06:25 PM
I'd go with Queen laying Brood Clusters (with energy) on any Zerg building (even Spine and Spore Crawlers) that spawn Broodlings, instead of the current death-swarms.

Brood Cluster (75 energy): Targets any Zerg building (ally, player, enemy). Gestates and releases 6 Broodlings that are released only when enemy units are within immediate vicinity. Cannot stack on same building until clusters burst. Broodlings last 20 seconds, 25 HP, 4 damage.


-Psi

Perfecttear
05-11-2009, 06:28 PM
Okay i give up.:rolleyes: I'm just wondering one thing RainbowToeSocks, how do you like the Broodlings Nest schematics, there could even be a unit that works that way. There must be a way to make those good for noothing sucky broodlings usefull :D

edit: Didn't see psiwarps comment.

RainbowToeSocks
05-11-2009, 06:31 PM
Okay i give up.:rolleyes: I'm just wondering one thing RainbowToeSocks, how do you like the Broodlings Nest schematics, there could even be a unit that works that way. There must be a way to make those good for noothing sucky broodlings usefull :D

Personally I think having the broodlings right where they are (on the brood guardian) is a perfect solution

They do little damage and distract unwatched units so the hard hitters (lings, ultras, mutas) can do more damage

perfect

electricmole
05-11-2009, 06:50 PM
i love turtling and i also want the base defense to be innovative and given an importance as well.

starcraft has always been different from all other rts, its fast and easy like to control EVEN with strong base defenses up. Its because starcraft have smaller artistic maps and bigger artistic detail units with personality.

When you build hardcore base defenses in starcaft, yes its turtling but no way it makes the gameplay slow or different. You can quickly direct your unit to attack base defenses, and your units response and attack fast and hard making the game fun and exciting. whatever type of style you play it starcraft is just different from all other rts, because the phase is fast.

In other rts like red alert, their units seems to move slow and boring, and turtling there looks and plays boring and slow because of the realistic huge terrains, and slow phase of the game etc. In starcraft the artistic style alone makes turtling fun, and so an improvement to it in sc2 would make it twice as fun.

i used to play unlimited minerals maps in sc1, were i build multiple base defenses and unit throughout the map. yes its long to finish but its fun seeing your base defenses attacking and getting destroyed fast and hard.

ExT
05-11-2009, 08:09 PM
I like your defence upgrade ideas. I don't know why people are making a big fuss out of it.. If you don't want to turtle, don't use your minerals to upgrade the defences, and spend them on units :P

The Broodling idea suits the Zerg, but would need a stack of balancing i suppose.

SpiderBrigade
05-11-2009, 08:14 PM
I like your defence upgrade ideas. I don't know why people are making a big fuss out of it.. If you don't want to turtle, don't use your minerals to upgrade the defences, and spend them on units :PYou miss the point: part of SC design has always been that spending all of your money on defenses isn't the best strategy for winning. The advantage is meant to go to the more active player.

RainbowToeSocks
05-11-2009, 08:19 PM
You miss the point: part of SC design has always been that spending all of your money on defenses isn't the best strategy for winning. The advantage is meant to go to the more active player.

Ahmen

ManjiSanji
05-11-2009, 08:54 PM
I like the Broodling idea, but the idea of a Photon Cannon that fires twice as much scares the shit out of me o_O

DemolitionSquid
05-11-2009, 08:55 PM
IF the Photon Cannon got an upgrade, it'd prefer it to be splash damage.

Whanhee
05-11-2009, 10:09 PM
IF the Photon Cannon got an upgrade, it'd prefer it to be splash damage.

Because psi storm isn't enough area damage XD

In any case, what I think would be an interesting idea would be to allow photon cannons to act as pylons, but only for other photon cannons and only if they are connected to either a pylon or a canon that is connected to a pylon or a cannon that is connected to a cannon that is connected to a pylon, etc.

Noise
05-12-2009, 07:20 AM
Use your god damn units to defend your base

electricmole
05-12-2009, 04:04 PM
there should be an AOE base defense for lorwise sakes.

Whanhee
05-12-2009, 05:54 PM
Just had a funny idea. Combine the drop pod thing and the bunker to make the man cannon. It loads up infantry and provides them with security while they can fight off attackers, then when the enemy begins retreating, it launches infantry to block off the retreat.

MattII
05-12-2009, 06:05 PM
Nah, I'd rather have a suggestion made ages back where the Dropship could be landed and turned into a Bunker, althought I must admit, that was back when we still had the old Dropship, it could become OP now, what with the Medivac healing SCVs.

Norfindel
05-12-2009, 09:50 PM
The problem, is that late game there are lots of units out there, and a lot of them can focus fire over one defense building, while being shot back with much less firepower.
I think that the way to go should be a per-building upgrade, for example: every Photon Cannon could get a power-up upgrade that increases damage, and/or fire rate, and/or hp, and/or get splash damage, etc, for that specific Cannon. That would be like building additional static defense, but without the mess that causes on the map.
A single upgrade to power-up all your static defense will probably be too powerfull for it's cost.

RainbowToeSocks
05-12-2009, 10:19 PM
Just had a funny idea. Combine the drop pod thing and the bunker to make the man cannon. It loads up infantry and provides them with security while they can fight off attackers, then when the enemy begins retreating, it launches infantry to block off the retreat.

too much like blink in a sense

Whanhee
05-13-2009, 07:30 PM
too much like blink in a sense

True... Maybe make it capable of building (internally) small barricades then launch those around itself to disrupt enemy unit flow. It can even drop them around itself for additional defense.

Eligor
05-13-2009, 07:36 PM
The problem, is that late game there are lots of units out there, and a lot of them can focus fire over one defense building, while being shot back with much less firepower.
I think that the way to go should be a per-building upgrade, for example: every Photon Cannon could get a power-up upgrade that increases damage, and/or fire rate, and/or hp, and/or get splash damage, etc, for that specific Cannon. That would be like building additional static defense, but without the mess that causes on the map.
A single upgrade to power-up all your static defense will probably be too powerfull for it's cost.



This is probably the best way to go about it. And I think it would fit in SC 2 pretty nicely.

mr. peasant
05-13-2009, 08:09 PM
IDEAS:

Protoss:
Photon Capacitor ~ Global or individualized upgrade for the Photon Cannon, giving it a secondary mode where it deals 100 damage per shot at five times its cooldown (same DPS). This makes it better against high armor units (which are more common in late tech) and allows the Cannon to deal more damage before it is destroyed.


Zerg:
Swarm Infestation ~ The Queen's Razor Swarm can bind directly onto a Spine or Spore Crawler, resulting in the Crawlers' attack gaining a damage over time attribute at the same rate as the Razor Swarm. The effect lasts 5 seconds. With micro, Crawlers can take out enemy units even quicker by switching targets and letting the DoT kill the unit for it.


Terrans:
Skylight ~ Upgrade for individual Bunkers, allowing them to target air units as well (only those with GTA attacks). Turrets remain useful as they are cheaper, unmanned and provide detection.

pure.Wasted
05-13-2009, 08:23 PM
Terrans:
Skylight ~ Upgrade for individual Bunkers, allowing them to target air units as well (only those with GTA attacks). Turrets remain useful as they are cheaper, unmanned and provide detection.

The most interesting thing about this is that it might replace Missile Turrets, and so make Terrans less detectorrific. Which is always very, very good.

Nicol Bolas
05-13-2009, 08:43 PM
Upgrade for individual Bunkers, allowing them to target air units as well

I'm fairly sure Bunkers can already target air units. Assuming Marines are manning them.

SpiderBrigade
05-13-2009, 08:56 PM
Terrans:
Skylight ~ Upgrade for individual Bunkers, allowing them to target air units as well (only those with GTA attacks). Turrets remain useful as they are cheaper, unmanned and provide detection.Umm...wait, when did they remove the ability for bunkers to hit air?

Edit: wow, double-simu-ninjaed. Impressive.

mr. peasant
05-13-2009, 08:59 PM
Hadn't/Don't remember ever seeing it so wasn't sure. They could just nerf and return it since Bunkers are pretty effective already. Anyway, here's an alternative:

Blast & Explosives Resistant Concrete Armor ~ The BERCA renders Bunkers adorned with it immune from splash damage, only taking direct fire.

viperjo
05-13-2009, 09:31 PM
I've seen a few good ideas, here here!

Individual upgrades to static defenses has been a passing idea in my head for a while now. Bunkers being able stock additional units or an upgrade to allow for a boost to damage for units already in the bunker. I like that units can use their abilities inside now!

Phase cannons need something unique, I really liked the ability to pick up and move but it seems that the crawlers have stolen that bit. Phase out is eerily similar to supply depots being able to drop down and allow passage. Perhaps something like the ability to sustain operation even if out of a pylon power range or the ability to temporarily boost damage output?

The crawlers are perfect I think, very fitting of the zerg and a nice evolution of the older colonies.

MattII
05-13-2009, 09:39 PM
Working outside Pylon range sounds interesting, though I'd suggest making it so that it wouldn't be able to regenerate shields while outside. Phasing Cannons is more like 'Blink' than 'Retract', in fact it's like a 'Blink' for buildings. At this point I'll again put forward a few suggestion that got ignored a while back.

Terran:
Bunker upgrades
-Strength upgrade (global) Increases hp by 100 hp and armour by 3 .
-Size upgrade (individual) Provides +2 slots in the Bunker.

Missile Turret upgrades
-Range upgrade (global) Increases range by 1.
-RoF upgrade (individual) Increases RoF by 33%.

New Building - Ibiks Turret
-Cost 100/100 min/gas
-200 hp
-20 damage (splash) G
-6 range


Protoss:
Photon Cannon upgrades
-Shield upgrade (global) increases shields by 50-75.
-RoF upgrade (individual) increases RoF by 50%

New Building - Phase/Warp Cannon
-Cost 150/50 min/gas
-100/100 hp/shields
-20 damage G/A
-7 range
It would takes 2 seconds or so to 'pack', 1 second per 20 spaces or so to actually phase/warp, and 2 seconds or so to 'unpack' again. It would only be able to phase/warp between power zones (Pylons or deployed Prisms).

New Building - Refuge
-Cost 150/250 min/gas
-100 hp, 250 shields
The shield covers an area protecting ground units (except Colossus obviously) inside from AtG attacks, and GtG attack orginating beyond the edge of the shield. Of course, with the shield extended building itself hasn't got shields. I also thought about this being a Dark Pylon ability that would cost it it's power zone while using it, but the Dark Pylon only has 100 sp, which isn't really enough.


Zerg:
Spine Crawler upgrades/changes
-(change) loses ability to regenerate while mobile, rather than losing hp.
-Attack upgrade (global) can use attack while mobile, but only does half-damage, and range is limited to 3.
-Regeneration upgrade (global, with Spore Crawler) allows half-speed regeneration while mobile, double speed while planted.

Spore Crawler upgrades/changes
-(change) loses ability to regenerate while mobile, rather than losing hp.
-Attack upgrade (global) can use attack while mobile, but only does half-damage, andrange is limited to 3.
-Regeneration upgrade (global, with Spore Crawler) allows half-speed regeneration while mobile, double speed while planted.

New building - Broodling Nest
-Cost 100/50 min/gas (produced by queen)
-150 hp (permanently burrowed)
It would produces/hold 5 Broodlings, and because Broodlings have a limited lifespan it would reset the Broodlings' lifetimers every time they return.
Morphs/Upgrades
-(morph) holds 10 Broodlings
-(upgrade) produces Broodlings twice as fast


Note some of these ideas were originally Perfecttear's.

SpiderBrigade
05-13-2009, 11:22 PM
MattII, those are some interesting ideas definitely. I like the "Refuge" and the "Broodling Nest" particularly. What the heck is an Ibiks though? :D

However I think adding attacks to the moving form of the Crawlers is a bad move. No matter how weak, it turns them into units much more than buildings. Relocating them is supposed to be kind of a last-ditch option I think rather than a mainline strategy.

MattII
05-14-2009, 04:18 AM
Ibiks is the official name of lasers on the PF (also note, the 'Refuge' is the oldest of the ideas here, first proposed in one of the 'walls' threads back in the pre-announcement days on BF). As for the Crawler attacks, you're right that they're currently too powerful even at half range, so I'll modify it to half damage as well.

Norfindel
05-14-2009, 08:13 AM
I also think that the Crawlers must not be able to attack while uprooted. Any kind of attack will allow the Zerg to use them as still more units, and they have enough units already.

Refuge should protect from air units "inside" the Shield, because realistically, if the Colossus would not fit inside because of it's height, neither the air units.

I don't know if i like global upgrades for static defense. I prefer one per-building upgrade that raises HP and attack rate (or whatever characteristic), before one global HP upgrade, and a per-building attack rate upgrade. The global upgrade would probably be so cheap compared with the benefit as to warrantee it's research.
However, if there are going to be a global upgrade, i think it should be the attack upgrade, and leave the HP upgrade as per-building, because that allows the player to upgrade the front buildings only to save resources, and the enemy can manually skip them, and attack the weaker ones first, creating a new are for decision and skill.

MattII
05-14-2009, 04:25 PM
I also think that the Crawlers must not be able to attack while uprooted. Any kind of attack will allow the Zerg to use them as still more units, and they have enough units already.
Okay then, what would you suggest as a late-game upgrade for these two?


Refuge should protect from air units "inside" the Shield, because realistically, if the Colossus would not fit inside because of it's height, neither the air units.
That's what I assumed everyone understood, but apparently not. I'll change it directly.


I don't know if i like global upgrades for static defense. I prefer one per-building upgrade that raises HP and attack rate (or whatever characteristic), before one global HP upgrade, and a per-building attack rate upgrade. The global upgrade would probably be so cheap compared with the benefit as to warrantee it's research.
More so than unit upgrades (which are also global)?


However, if there are going to be a global upgrade, i think it should be the attack upgrade, and leave the HP upgrade as per-building, because that allows the player to upgrade the front buildings only to save resources, and the enemy can manually skip them, and attack the weaker ones first, creating a new are for decision and skill.
If the enemy can bypass the defences they're useless already. It also doesn't really matter which upgrade is global, unless you're worried about timing, because a building with a hp upgrade will do the same overall damage as a building with an attack upgrade, but it'll take longer to do it.

Whanhee
05-14-2009, 04:41 PM
Broodlings having a limited life outside of their nest will make it a hassle to control them. Keeping track of multiple broodlings and their remaining lifespans will be very annoying imo, especially if you need to rebuild them if they die. I think it should be more of a hatchery like thing, perhaps even evolving from the hatchery to produce both broodlings and larva (potential defensive upgrade for all those hatcheries zerg will be having). With the broodlings wandering around the nest until an enemy comes nearby, then it starts attacking it.

To maybe mix it up some more, make the baneling an evolution of the broodling.

P.S. I still like my barricade launching bunker better than the capacity upgrades. It really doesn't help terran imo. Static defenses mean lack of flexibility and a harder time expanding as you struggle to meet the defensive requirements as your opponents larger and more maneuverable army (given he isn't also a turtling noob) runs train on you. Especially if your army is busy manning all the bunkers.

MattII
05-14-2009, 05:41 PM
Broodlings having a limited life outside of their nest will make it a hassle to control them. Keeping track of multiple broodlings and their remaining lifespans will be very annoying imo, especially if you need to rebuild them if they die.
They auto-respawn after a short period (say 7-10 seconds). Can you explain how a limited lifespan makes control difficult please?


I think it should be more of a hatchery like thing, perhaps even evolving from the hatchery to produce both broodlings and larva (potential defensive upgrade for all those hatcheries zerg will be having).
Interesting, but why don't we fit Hatcheries with Spine Crawler tentacles instead, they don't have a limited life-span.


To maybe mix it up some more, make the baneling an evolution of the broodling.
Hells no, that's worse than making the Roach an evolution of the Zergling.


P.S. I still like my barricade launching bunker better than the capacity upgrades. It really doesn't help terran imo.
You're right, Man Cannons will be more expensive then just plain bunkers and infantry, and won't be any better for their price because it will mean putting the enemy between the infantry any their Bunker, rather than just allowing them to chase the enemy down, which at least allows them to retreat if the withdrawl was a rise


Static defenses mean lack of flexibility and a harder time expanding as you struggle to meet the defensive requirements as your opponents larger and more maneuverable army (given he isn't also a turtling noob) runs train on you. Especially if your army is busy manning all the bunkers.
Salvage allows you to get your money back on bunkers and other immobile building, so you 'don't' have masses of unemployed defensive structures all over the map.

Norfindel
05-14-2009, 09:28 PM
Okay then, what would you suggest as a late-game upgrade for these two?
The problem is that they're easy to kill late game, as you tipically cannot build enough static defense at the same spot to counter the heavy amounts of units that are present late game, so i think the upgrades must enhance the building's resistance and damage output for all races. To introduce some differences, some race could have a HP upgrade, other an Armor upgrade, or even Reinforced Shields (they don't need to be exactly like the Immortal's, as to leave some way for balance), other Fast Regeneration (like the Roach, but maybe not as fast).
Attacks could be just raised in sheer damage, faster cooldown, added Splash, added some kind of bonus, or maybe even some effect, like slow enemies down, etc.



More so than unit upgrades (which are also global)?
Yes, unit upgrades generally are about Armor and Attack, but they modify the result slightly. It's another thing to add 50 HP to all Photon Cannons, but i won't say it would be OP, maybe it won't. I think that the upgrades should be per-building, just to make it somewhat like "building static defense on top of static defense", so that the amount of static defense per area is raised, as the attacking units per area raise in late game, but not as easily as researching once and get all your static defense way better. To put it in another way: how much resources must your enemy spend to overcome your better defenses that costed you only a research?



If the enemy can bypass the defences they're useless already. It also doesn't really matter which upgrade is global, unless you're worried about timing, because a building with a hp upgrade will do the same overall damage as a building with an attack upgrade, but it'll take longer to do it.
But if you upgrade the front buildings only, the enemy units will attack them by default. The enemy must micro to reach the weaker buildings first, and take less damage by killing them faster, then taking care of the stronger-hp one.
HP upgrade differs from attack upgrade in that you would be better by attacking the higher attack building first, and the higher HP building last. I think that by placing the higher HP building first, you can potentially gain a sizeable advantage, as it would soak damage for more time while the rest of your buildings attack the enemy, unless your enemy notices that, and decides to attack the weaker buildings, ignoring the stronger ones, which encourages decision making.
Of course, you could do the same by putting the stronger attack building last, shielded by the normal buildings, but it's easier to concentrate fire in a lone heavier attack building, than to ignore a frontal heavier HP building, and take the weaker buildings down one by one.